Can a Former Addict become a good Poker Player?

#1) I am and have been a poker addict for nearly a decade, losing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

#2) It has completely destroyed my life, in various ways and I can not deny this no matter what I try to tell myself

#3) I truly DO and have for a couple years now believe I am a good player when I play the game the way it should be played.

All this being said, I am ready for the flurry of replies telling me 'Once an Adddict Always an Addict' and every other variance of that statement. Basically I am ready for people to tell me what I propose is impossible.

I am not sure I am posting this here for for assurance of what my deepest fears are or if I am posting it because I want to come back 2 years from now showing everyone I have been able to change my habits. I would guess a combination of both.

On to the situation :

My problem, plain and simple is even when I KNOW without a doubt, without any reason to doubt, and with the feeling deep down that I am beat... I will not drop. This is my first problem.

My second problem is I like the RUSH of playing big stake games, I would buy in for $200 I had that I could spare that week.. Buyin at the $1K NL Tables min buyin and either have a good week or bad week.. Eventually losing it all regardless.

I four tabled at party for some time with varying results. If I kept my cool I did well if I let just one bad beat tilt me say good bye to the last week's winnings... and yes, they were steady winnings. I would tell myself I was running bad, and go at it again.

Those are some of my tendancies and tendancies of a tpyical problem gambler. I am also very aware of this.

I am jobless at this point, I have $500 in a poker account somewhere.. The last week over 1500 hands of $1 NL I have made $250 give or take a few dollars. I have played a tight game, made four incredibly horrible plays that cost me a total of $400. I was able to walk away, turn off the computer and come back later to steadily win back those losses. I never dropped below my buyin amount. On the contrary playing six handed my VP$IP figures are horracious, I should not have the winnings I do. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I am trying starting this week (as I consider it the second week) to reduce my VP$IP, and walk away when frustrated as I ahve been, as well as not going up levels.

Couple things I am sure that will come up :

1) Yes I am aware my bankroll is too small
2) Yes I am aware it takes but one mistake again
3) Yes even though I have kept my cool considerably better than before it doesn't mean a damn thing in the long run

Let's start here and I will answer any questions related to the situation; however I do request that no bashing (such as calling me a complete f'ing idiot) occurs in this thread. If you feel that way, please simply tell me I am an addict, I have a gambling problem, and it will never change.

I truly WILL respect your opinion, all the more so if I know you are a player who has played without poker affecting your life in a negative way.

This is what I would like to do;

1) I want to start at the $50 NL level, buying in with $30 every time.

2) Play no more than 4 hour sessions even if I am hot as a fire poker.

3) I also will not play more than 2 tables at any point of time as it dramatically effects my judgement.

4) I will not stray from the $50 NL game even if I see a SUPER JUICY $100 NL Game going on with three TOTAL fish going apeshit.

5) Maintain my mind frame that this is the money my family is going to be eating off of next week and is going to make the hosue payment in a month.

All that being said I want to note, my family will eat and my house payment will be made along with all other bills paid even if I bust out entirely at this site by doing something stupid.

---------------------------------------------------------

This is the main question :

Is it possible someone with my mind frame can retrain themselves to realize that earnign a little at a time steadily is better than that big hit. The biggest road block being I am a problem gambler and there is no denying that. Can I become a successful player?

I am on a 1-10 scale, at a 7 or so in the $100 and under category. There are players I thought were the best damn players on the site I am playing at I put absolutely sweet traps on and nailed them hard this week. When I am playing like this my mentality is different. I would far from rate myself above a 7 for multiple reasons beyond the desire to play at larger limits and wreckless calling when I know I am beat. My main actual leak in my game is my extraordinarily high VP$IP figures. And no, I haven't ever in the past decade looked at my game like I have in the last week.

Please be fairly constructive in your replies, I am aware how ridicilous this will sound to the majority of you and I do not need to be told how stupid I am for screwing up my life on gambling, I already know this O.K. ?

Question is, can I make this not about the gambling when I am being treated for every other problem I had that was occuring during that decade. Heavy Drug and Alchohol abuse mainly.. Which of course do not lead to wise financial decisions or wise decisions at the tables.

Fire away -->

[Python49]

Well aside from the obvious advice.... id suggest having someone review your Hand Histories and then telling you the leaks in your game. Once you know what you are doing wrong, focus on not making these same mistakes again. It's up to you in terms of if you can make the corrections you need to, to be a successful player...

[ QUOTE ]
Well aside from the obvious advice.... id suggest having someone review your Hand Histories and then telling you the leaks in your game. Once you know what you are doing wrong, focus on not making these same mistakes again. It's up to you in terms of if you can make the corrections you need to, to be a successful player...

[/ QUOTE ]

Python, I agree and this is the stance I am taking. Taking the game seriously this time around starting as of a week ago. However, people who have known me for long periods of time simply state "You have a gmabling problem don't kid yourself you CAN NOT do this"

It's frustrating when I would at least like to try as I do truly enjoy the game. I am realizing it is more of a rush to me knowing I just outplayed an opponent then that I won a huge pot... As odd as that sounds.

[Orpheus]

Can they? Sure, it's statistically possible. I sincerely wish you the best of luck--when you're not at my tables.

HOWEVER, at the risk of falling afoul of your guidelines, I must point out that "Table Selection is rule #1" (some say Rule #0, since you can't expect anything good from sitting at a table that holds nothing but trouble for you)

Poker has held nothing but trouble for you. Why do you think a poker table is the right table for you? On at least Some level, you know that it may not be, so you've blown rule #1.

On the other hand, you've obviously made up your mind to pusue a course of action, so I can only honestly wish you well, though, objectively, I wonder if a $500 downturn in the coming week might be the kindest outcome, however good you may be.

What's changed? Were you a terrible player before? I'd say "yes", even though I'm perfectly willing to believe that you could beat me, heads up or ring or tourney. An otherwise outstanding player with a huge leak at the river can be a terrible player overall, because the money will inevitably flow outmof his wallet in the long run. You've actually told us that the (relatively) frequent "big beats" are not out of tyour bloodstream. Even if your extremely short-term results are moderately positive, they are not usual for a complete newbies with a merely decent game, playing low level NLHE.

You must know this. If you don't, after all your play, then you are *way* behind the curve, and headed for a drubbing, regardless of anything else you may say. Yet you seek to redeem yours life through poker.

I fully understand that society isn't remotely fair, and you may not be likely to get a position that makes best use (and properly remunerates) your abilities and skills, but that doesn't make poker the right venue for you. Not knowing you political or philosopical views, I can't choose an evocative example, but they abound: from the athletically gifted inner city youth who turns to drug running because he put all his eggs into his basketball game but lost the big college scholarship (when a little more attention to academics and discipline might have kept him on the road to the majors) to the unepathetic pre-med who can make it through medical school, but will never truly enjoy or perform well in in the the actual practice of clinical medicine (among the reasons why physicians have such a high rate of suicide)

You must have better options, especially considering your past. I wish I could tell you what they are.

But you've made up your mind, and have already essentially said that you're not going to heed the response you KNOW most profitable players will have. So good luck! And I REALLY hope I get to hear a trenchant "I told you so" in a year. No decent human being who has ever been down for the count, for any reason, can wish ill on another.

Just know this: you've preselected the responses you'll heed, though the cards are stacked against you.

Oh heck: good luck even when you're at my table. I can take the hit.

Orpheus, those were some excellent points. I prefer not to get into the other options in my life as I don't plan on doing this long term for a living - Period. I am going to get a 9-5 and live a normal life, I would LOVE to be able to consider this a profitable hobby the rest of my life and maybe... just maybe; even break even at some point of time /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm rather suprised at the comments and replies I am getting, I definately expected more inane remarks and people berating me. I will post my stats in a week's time and maybe time to time in between there. I am also going to be spending some time reading other areas of this forumn and posting questions in the appropriate areas as well.

And you may very well be correct, losing the $500 may be the best outcome regardless of how good of a player I 'may'
be due to the fact I could very easily lose the mind frame I have now and cause more devastation to my life. I definately hope this is not my case as I have cleaned my life up in alot of other very difficult areas, and hope I can do so here as well.

[PairTheBoard]

Be careful. Be very careful.

PairTheBoard

[Jimmy The Fish]

[ QUOTE ]

Is it possible someone with my mind frame can retrain themselves to realize that earnign a little at a time steadily is better than that big hit. The biggest road block being I am a problem gambler and there is no denying that. Can I become a successful player?


[/ QUOTE ]

No "firing away" here.

I have several relatives who have battled substance addictions of one form or another. It's not a laughing matter, or one to be dismissed lightly.

Addiction is, by definition, uncontrollable. You can construct all sorts of rules and guidelines for yourself, but you'll have to constantly fight the temptation to ignore them. The part of your brain that drives the addiction will always crave the "big hit", no matter how consistently you deny it.

You may be excellent at finding the right strategy to beat your opponents, but the inability to let go of sure losers is a huge weakness. That alone makes it questionable to determine whether you can become a successful player.

But here's the biggest concern I have:
[ QUOTE ]

5) Maintain my mind frame that this is the money my family is going to be eating off of next week and is going to make the hosue payment in a month.

All that being said I want to note, my family will eat and my house payment will be made along with all other bills paid even if I bust out entirely at this site by doing something stupid.


[/ QUOTE ]

The money you already have online may not have an impact on your family; but you don't say whether you would reload if it disappeared. Until you can afford to lose the money, you can't afford to play with it.

It should be obvious what my recommendation will be. Cash out and use the $500 in the real world. Pick a date -- six months, nine months, a year -- and make a commitment to a complete lack of gambling in this time period. Prove to yourself that you truly can walk away, that you're not just trying to rationalize the continuation of the addiction. If, after that time, you have a job and can afford to lose money, you can make a decision about whether to buy back in.

I wish you all the best.

[psyduck]

Hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Or are you exaggerating and have just lost thousands?

A lot of the stuff you posted is pretty nonsensical. WTF are you doing buying into a $50 game with $30?

[cero_z]

OK, I'll say it. NO. You cannot do this. I concede that it's possible, since undoubtedly there are a few addicted gamblers at the absolute pinnacle of poker, but your chances are sickeningly low.

Your most severe leak is the worst one of all: you can't fold when you know you're beaten, and losses only worsen this condition. This kills poker players, even those who aren't addicts. Steaming is a powerful force, and everyone who's not a freak of nature must struggle with it. But it's hard enough when you're not a problem gambler. A player with the traits you've described has no chance.

The other reason I say no is that you don't appear to have exceptional ability, unless you were being modest about your own assessment of your abilities. 7 out of 10 at the $100 limit is not exceptional. Those players are horrible compared to a pro who makes 50K/year or more. That pro is an 11 out of 10 at that limit. Even someone who's green and improving with experience ought to be a 9 on sheer ability in these games, if they even want to consider going pro.

Making a living at poker is HARD under favorable conditions; you have all odds against you (addiction, tiny bankroll, mediocre talent). Forget the fantasies you read on this board about all the 22-year-old kids making 100K in their sleep; 22-year-olds lie. A select few regular posters at this site play well enough to support themselves playing poker if they had to pay rent, etc., but most do not play much better than break-even poker.

What you do is your personal business. I am giving you a recommendation that comes only from a place of compassion toward you, I promise. You have too many things going against you, and losing it all at poker again will likely cause a lot of damage to your psyche. Let it go. Let it go.

Cero

[Al Schoonmaker]

You have already answered your own question. You KNOW that you can't become a good player, but you're hoping that someone is going to tell you what you want to hear.

Let me quote from an article that appeared in our magazine a few months ago, "Denial, Part III."

"Robert Andersson stimulated this article by sending me a Personal Message. 'Here at the forum a lot of people ask for advice. We want to know how to play this or that hand or ask for opinions on other subjects. I just thought that the most important thing when you ask for advice is to be open to the answers you're getting.'

"I could not agree more, but countless posters are not asking for information. They really want confirmation. Instead of sincerely wanting to improve their game or their understanding of another subject, they want to be told: 'You’re right...'

"Don’t Search for Confirming Opinions.

"Because people have different opinions, you may be tempted to go 'shopping' for confirmation. Let’s say I ask Mason and David about a hand, and they say, 'Al, you misplayed it.' Their opinions should be enough to convince me. Unfortunately, if I’m defensive, I might ask for some more opinions, and I might look for people who I expect to agree with me. If I ask enough people, I can probably find someone – perhaps a weak player -- who tells me exactly what I want to hear: 'Alan, that’s just the way I would have played it.'

"Aha! I’ve gotten the confirmation I need to protect my ego, but I have also reinforced my own denial. Even if five experts say I’m wrong, and only one weak player supports me, I have support for my denial. I wish I never went confirmation shopping, but I have done it occasionally. You have probably done it too. If the first one or two people you consult say you’re wrong, stop shopping, accept reality, and learn from your mistake."

You are now confirmation shopping. A few people -- who will not have any training in psychology -- may say, "You can become a good player." They don't know what they are talking about.

They would be just as wrong as the weak players who disagreed with David and Mason on how to play a hand. ANY competent psychologist will say that your chances of becoming a good player are nearly zero.

You may succeed for a brief time, but the psychological characteristics that made you into an addict are still operating, and they will almost certainly continue to operate.

Do the sensible thing. Accept reality and the opinion of experts: Leave poker and all other forms of gambling alone.

Regards,

Al

[Python49]

[ QUOTE ]
"You can become a good player." They don't know what they are talking about.


[/ QUOTE ]
F*ck that.

Learning to be able to beat a $100 NL game is NOT hard if you study and are open to advice... and willing to put the changes into place. I'm not saying this guy can or cannot do it, frankly it sounds as though he lacks self control (knowing when to fold hands, learning to be patient, not over value'ing hands).. which could be the deciding factor on if he could be a winning player. If he cannot get self control then yeah, he won't be able to beat the game. If he did however learn to control his play and play the game the winning way... crushing a $100 NL game isn't the most challenging thing in the world. I am not however condoning him to continue playing this game, I think someone with a gambling problem should obviously stop immediately, i am just saying though that he could learn to be a winning player... anyone can, it's just up to him if he's willing to practice what he learns and is told.

[FredJones888]

you have no idea what you are saying.

this guy does not have a typical psychological attitude towards gambling, he is a compulsive. That means that he compulsively does things even though he already knows better. It doesn't matter how much he knows, and he already knows a lot. He knows how to play correctly but he can't do it.

Al, out of all people that post here, especially this section of 2 + 2 I highly regard your opinion. I do think though, that your argument here is subjective. I say that for these reasons only.

Not because I believe I can beat the game at low levels, not because I think I can make spare change to pay me car payment, and most certainly not because I could ever even think at this point of my life I have the mind frame to play this game at a level YOU can.

But for ONCE in my life I am making the proper moves. I 'AM' dropping limits to where I feel I can beat the field. I am not playing $1K NL. I AM asking for advice and TRULY taking it to heart (including yours). I am making a concious effort to change the behavioral patterns that led me to the incredible mis fortune I have seen in my life.

I STILL will tell people to this day, even if I lsot $100K the night before (and it has happened) that poker is NOT a game of LUCK, it is a game of skill. Is luck involved?

ABSOLUTELY!!!

But skill trumps luck in the long run.


'You may succeed for a brief time, but the psychological characteristics that made you into an addict are still operating, and they will almost certainly continue to operate.'

This, is the main issue and the focus of this particular thread Al. I am Bi-Polar, I am an alchoholic, and I have abused damn near every drug known to man. They have ALL completely ruined my life in some way, shape, or form. Some worse than others.

I have control over my alchoholism, my drug addictions, and I have even quit smoking !!!! To put it into perspective to do all of those things over the course of 18 months is what ABSOLUTELY ANY DRUG COUNSELOR 'WILL' tell you is impossible and strongly .... strongly.... dis-advocated.

They say, one step at a time.. blah blah blah ... Not who I am /images/graemlins/smile.gif Now this does NOT mean I will succeed, and you may very well be right Al. But it isn't 'quite' as cut and dry as you put it.

Some people will say...

"Well, once an alchoholic always an alchoholic"

True?

YES!

I'm here trying to find out if it is true or not that once you have certain personalities that lead you to become a gambling addict.... Can you make it a game of skill - Or are you eternally doomed to repeat the same mistakes an alchoholic would make no matter how much effort you put into it.


Do the sensible thing. Accept reality and the opinion of experts: Leave poker and all other forms of gambling alone.

ALL ther forms of gambling except poker have been left alone, if you knew the stories of my other forms of gambling, and the comps alone I have recieved in Vegas you would feel Pity for me. That is not what I am here for though.

[Jeffage]

Dude, you have a family, a wife and kids that need you. Smarten up and leave it alone...you've illustrated time and time again you can't handle it. Focus your energies on them and don't visit an online site or cardroom for a year. If after that time, you must play low limits for fun if you insist on returning. Don't venture for serious money, b/c you've shown time and again you will lose (and big) and it will impact your life badly. Just remember what is really important to you and protect them and yourself by any means necessary.

As a player, people like you make me money. But you are asking for help away from the felt, so I am offering you my best advice...whether to take it is up to you.

Jeff

[Al Schoonmaker]

I greatly admire all that you have accomplished. VERY few people could kick so many addictions.

But you said:

"They say, one step at a time.. blah blah blah ... Not who I am Now this does NOT mean I will succeed, and you may very well be right Al. But it isn't 'quite' as cut and dry as you put it.

"Some people will say...

"Well, once an alchoholic always an alchoholic"

"True?

"YES!

"I'm here trying to find out if it is true or not that once you have certain personalities that lead you to become a gambling addict.... Can you make it a game of skill - Or are you eternally doomed to repeat the same mistakes an alchoholic would make no matter how much effort you put into it."

End of quoted material.

The critical issue, as in all poker decisions, is EV. We compute EV by multiplying the probabilities of all outcomes times the rewards and risks.

You recognize that the probability of success is very low.

You recognize that the risks are enormous. You can start another cycle of addiction. Previous cycles nearly destroyed you.

If you succeed, you win a few dollars, and the odds are very high that you won't succeed.

Given these facts, what is the EV of deciding to play poker?

It is MASSIVELY negative.

You should know from your work with counselors that a major symptom of all addictions is denial: "Don't worry about me. I can handle it (alcohol, cocaine, heroin, gambling, etc.).

You're in denial now. Read your own posts. Review what has happened to you. Then ask, "Is it worth risking my entire life on the low probability that I can succeed where so many other gambling addicts have failed?"

Regards,

Al

Regards,

Al

[SNOWBALL138]

Hey buddy,

If you feel that Dr. Al is wrong, then I recommend that you make an appointment with a therapist. Get a second opinion.

Best wishes,
Snowball

[Bodhi]

Dude, get a job. The fact that you're still taking shots at limits you can't afford is pitiful.

[Bodhi]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think though, that your argument here is subjective.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean that he's arguing from pseudo-facts like "chocolate is better than vanilla?" Nothing could be further from the truth. A psychologist's profession is to understand people from a scientific perspective, and the objective evidence for your addiction is obvious even to the laymen here.

[solucky]

Do you have a friend that is a winning player ? Perhaps he can have a look to your game, and you both can discuss a few things. On my side it is verry helpfull to make a excelsheet with the wins/losses. In a bad streak its for me helpfull to see its not my first bad streak and i am still up xxxx$. A big problem is JOBLESS and FAMILY, I doubt that you can live from 2table NL50.

Wish you the best
Wolfgang

Stranger,

No you cannot gamble in moderation without your disease of addiction escalating. You need to admit defeat in this area of your life and find healthy hobbies to replace it.

How do I know this? I spent 10+ years of my life trying to kill myself with Cocaine. I sacrificed everything normal in my life for the euphoria that the drug offered me when I used. I did not use the drug because it made me excel in other areas of my life, I wanted the rush it gave me.NO MATTER WHAT THE COSTS. Thankfully, thru the "one day at time" method you so despise, I have 4 years of clean time and have been slowly rebuiding my life. But for me to start thinking that I can use cocaine again in moderation, would be absolutely insane. It would all start again and I would lose everything. plain and simple.

Ask yourself this? What separates me from the people who play poker successfully?How come they can play and I cannot? The answer is simple. They play to win money, and you play for the rush you get when you play. This is why you go to higher stakes because it offers more for you. This is why you call when you know you hold the losing hand, because you want the rush NOW. Not later on when you hold the best hand.

Also, this is the absolute worst place you could ask this question. You cannot expect regular poker players to help you find the answer. If an alcoholic of 20 years without a drink walks into a bar and explains his life to complete strangers, and then suggests to them that he thinks he can now have a drink now and again, at least half the bar will be willing to buy him the first drink to get him started.

Life has dealt you your hand,accept it for what it is,or be prepared to lose everything.

Hope you make the right choice, and good luck.

Down_N_Dirty

"The Definition of insanitity is reapeting the same mistakes over and over again, and then expecting different results /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Python49]

[ QUOTE ]
He knows how to play correctly but he can't do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he cannot get self control then yeah, he won't be able to beat the game. If he did however learn to control his play and play the game the winning way... crushing a $100 NL game isn't the most challenging thing in the world

[/ QUOTE ]

[Python49]

Also, I don't want to give the impression that i'm suggesting this guy continue playing, that's far from how I feel. He's already stated however that he is not looking to hear that advice, and wants to know if its just *possible* for him to be a winning player. Telling him he can't change his gambling habits is like telling a cocaine addict they'll never be able to quit... it CAN be done but its extermely hard and up to them. But ofcourse in my opinion I think it's time to stop playin gthe game.. you won't be able to make back hundreds of thousands of dollars playing $50 NL.

[BigDukeSix]

It seems to me the 'game' you need to beat, is the addiction (any addiction)

Research the subject, become an authority, master your destiny. Drink from the clear waters of the lake of knowledge, that you, and only you have defeated and escaped from the prison of your soul.

There is a purity in truth, and only you can really know that truth.

After all that go back to the poker.

There is a good quote from a pro (Chris Ferguson I think) in the Lee Jones Book, about taking time off from poker, read a book, go for a walk, listen to some music etc.

Good advice IMHO

[punter11235]

Face some facts :

-about 10% of all players can consistently beat the game
-this 10% are players with great talent, discipline, psychologically healthy and with good attitude to gambling
-not even 5% of this 10% are pros;
-these less than 0.05% of players are people EXCEPTIONALLY gifted in this area

Now try to make educated guess what's your chances to be in this less than 0.05% group...
-you have gambling addiction
-you are psychologically unsteady
-you are not one of the best players at 100NL which is ridicously soft
-you "cant fold" which mean you dont have good discipline which is very difficult to master and is crucial poker skill
-its still possible that your addiction will be back one night, you will lose control and you will lose more than all your efforts for previous months or even years

If you ask if its possible that you will make it. It is. But its not more likely than winning lottery.
What you have to win ? Some money and not so fascinating job which playing poker is. Its for sure not more money than you can make doing normal job with real people having normal social life. What do you have to lose ? Your family, your health, your life.
You see poker is about making objective decisions based on facts and not your inside fears or delusions.
Try to make good decision in life first.

Best wishes

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

It is possible for you to become a good player. However it is very unlikely based on your past, and even if you did become a great winning player it may open up more unseen problems.

I HIGHLY recomend you never play poker or gamble in any other form ever again in your life. May sound harsh but its good advice.

[PairTheBoard]

You say your problem as a poker player is being unable to fold a losing hand. Given your history as a compulsive gambler, the Idea that you can control and enjoy your poker is a hand you need to Fold. It's a Loser.

PairTheBoard

[CaptSensible]

You ask if it's possible that an addict can become a good gambler? The answer is yes. It's also possible to win the lottery.

Listen to Dr. Al. He's telling you that the chances are EXTREMELY slim and you'd be risking all that you currently have in your life.

I've been clean from Cocaine and many other drugs for nearly 15 years. I am a member of AA. I attribute a large part of my sobriety to listening to what others who have more experience and knowledge have to say and doing what they have suggested.

Is losing everything you have worth it finding out if you could be a good poker player? In my opinion the answer is no.

Is it worth it for me to lose everything I've gained over the last 15 years to have a beer with a pizza or a joint at a party? The answer is absolutely not.

Given the information in your post my advice is to put the chips down and walk away from the table. It's just not worth it.

Get professional help (i'm sure you are being treated for your bi-polarity).
I'm being treated for depression and ADD and understand addictive personality and mental disorders.
I sincerely hope you listen the the posts on here and decide to focus your life energy on yourself and your family and not poker.

I wish you the best of luck in all your endeavors.

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]

#1) losing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

#2) It has completely destroyed my life, in various ways

I am jobless at this point,

my family will eat and my house payment will be made along

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a family, a mortgage, and no job. You have a history as a losing, problem gambler. If you play with fire, do not cry if you get burned.

I will give you one piece of advice: ask your wife what she thinks, and do whatever she recommends. If she does not support your choice, you cannot in good conscience gamble despite her objections.

On the other hand, she is in the best position to determine if you are truly a "different person" and can handle responsible gambling. A bunch of anonymous 2p2ers will not give you good advice.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm here trying to find out if it is true or not that once you have certain personalities that lead you to become a gambling addict.... Can you make it a game of skill - Or are you eternally doomed to repeat the same mistakes an alchoholic would make no matter how much effort you put into it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Poker is a gambling game. There is an element of skill involved, but do not kid yourself into thinking it's not gambling. It is. And if you are a compulsive gambler you absolutely need to avoid it, just as you'd avoid alcohol or drugs. I think it is irresponsible for anyone to recommend that an admitted compulsive gambler do anything other than stop gambling. I wish you the best of luck.

[ QUOTE ]


Al, out of all people that post here, especially this section of 2 + 2 I highly regard your opinion. I do think though, that your argument here is subjective. I say that for these reasons only.

Not because I believe I can beat the game at low levels, not because I think I can make spare change to pay me car payment, and most certainly not because I could ever even think at this point of my life I have the mind frame to play this game at a level YOU can.

But for ONCE in my life I am making the proper moves. I 'AM' dropping limits to where I feel I can beat the field. I am not playing $1K NL. I AM asking for advice and TRULY taking it to heart (including yours). I am making a concious effort to change the behavioral patterns that led me to the incredible mis fortune I have seen in my life.

I STILL will tell people to this day, even if I lsot $100K the night before (and it has happened) that poker is NOT a game of LUCK, it is a game of skill. Is luck involved?

ABSOLUTELY!!!

But skill trumps luck in the long run.


'You may succeed for a brief time, but the psychological characteristics that made you into an addict are still operating, and they will almost certainly continue to operate.'

This, is the main issue and the focus of this particular thread Al. I am Bi-Polar, I am an alchoholic, and I have abused damn near every drug known to man. They have ALL completely ruined my life in some way, shape, or form. Some worse than others.

I have control over my alchoholism, my drug addictions, and I have even quit smoking !!!! To put it into perspective to do all of those things over the course of 18 months is what ABSOLUTELY ANY DRUG COUNSELOR 'WILL' tell you is impossible and strongly .... strongly.... dis-advocated.

They say, one step at a time.. blah blah blah ... Not who I am /images/graemlins/smile.gif Now this does NOT mean I will succeed, and you may very well be right Al. But it isn't 'quite' as cut and dry as you put it.

Some people will say...

"Well, once an alchoholic always an alchoholic"

True?

YES!

I'm here trying to find out if it is true or not that once you have certain personalities that lead you to become a gambling addict.... Can you make it a game of skill - Or are you eternally doomed to repeat the same mistakes an alchoholic would make no matter how much effort you put into it.


Do the sensible thing. Accept reality and the opinion of experts: Leave poker and all other forms of gambling alone.

ALL ther forms of gambling except poker have been left alone, if you knew the stories of my other forms of gambling, and the comps alone I have recieved in Vegas you would feel Pity for me. That is not what I am here for though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Until I read this post, I was thinking to myself "yeah, well, probably not, but maybe...."

This post changed that.

With this post, the only advice I can give you is to run away and run fast.

I have suffered from addictive tendencies before as well - and the stage you are in now is the "rationalizing" stage. You have made some "rules" and given yourself some "structure" and you think that this makes it ok for you to continue.

In so doing, you have done what most people do in your situation and missed the massive warning signal.

Instead of saying "this is ruining my life, so I want to stop", you have basically just given yourself permission to continue.

Answer this question - if is wasn't for this new approach that you say you are taking, could you, in good conscience, continue to play poker?

I already know that the answer is "no". You have said as much. So this is you giving yourself permission to play. This is you enabling yourself to continue with an unhealthy habit.

And I have no doubt that for a while, it will work. For a while, you will play solid, fundamental poker. For a while, you will succeed. But it won't last.

You need to keep something in mind. You are not an alcohol addict or a drug addict or a poker addict. You are an addict. You are the sort of person who gets addicted to things that make you feel good - and winning at poker makes you feel good. Don't you realize that this is why you get so angry when you lose? Its because when you lose, you are that much further away from winning and it is the winning that makes you feel good.

You need to step away from all of this. You need to find alternative, healthier ways to feel pleasure. This is a LONG process and it is clear that you have really just taken the first steps - even if those steps took you many years to take.

[valenzuela]

Lets suppose U can beat the game, lets suppose..I repeat we are supposing u can beat the game...can someone with ure personality manage variance??
edit: Once variance hits you, you will start playing losing poker instead of winning poker. You will probably reply to me saying u can handle the swings but I dont think u can.

[bwana devil]

great posts Dr. Al.

Addict, let me echo his sentiment and some of the other posters on this thread by saying it sounds like youre looking for permission to slip back into some addictive vices that you find comfortable. you are already making bad decisions regarding gambling and are heading for trouble. additionally it is a bad idea to consider your family dependent on your gambling money.

i would recommend that you stop immediately before you get yourself and your family in trouble.

bwana

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]


I HIGHLY recomend you never play poker or gamble in any other form ever again in your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Vincent Lepore]

Hi Al,

This is a very interesting thread. At first I thought that this fellow was just posting this as a joke. Or at least as a sarcastic look at those poker players that claim that poker is not gambling. I confess to the latter.

I'm still not convinced that something of this nature was not the intent of the OP but I don't think it matters. What makes this interesting to me aside from the addiction aspect of the thread is just what does it take to change the beliefs of long time poker players whether they are losers or winners for that matter.

Most people that play poker for some short period of time begin to believe that they know how to play the game. I think this is because most people experience some form of short term success which makes them believe that they know how to play wheteher or not they really do understand the game. I've seen this type of belief through exhibeted behavior in many gambling games especially craps.

I do not know much about the causes of any addiction nor how to cure any of them. I used to believe that education was the key to freeing oneself from an addiction. I don't doubt that I was very wrong about this. But in the realm of poker, something I feel that I know a little about, I am pretty sure that education is the key to success. I believe that a person that has been playing for many years and has been a consistent loser, then realizes that it is because of how he plays the game might just be able to become a winning player if he accepted his short comings and focused on learning winning concepts.

I have found that once someone understands what constitutes proper poker play they will either play according to those concepts or quit playing poker altogether. I believe it has something to do with intelligence.

So if I were going to advise this fellow on how to either become a winning poker player or quit poker altogether I would tell him to read and heed everything that Sklansky and Malmuth have written on the subject of poker playing and accept it as gospel. Once he accomplishes this he might just be cured. Well, I hope so anyway.

An old buddy,

Vince

[Al Schoonmaker]

Hi Vince,

So nice to see you here. You've been away too long. You should come here more often.

We disagree on this issue, but we've disagreed before without it ever harming our friendship.

Education is NOT the cure for addictions. For example, nobody knows more about the effects of drugs than physicians, but they have a higher rate of drug addiction than the general population. They usually become addicted to prescription drugs, not street ones.

They know better, but the combination of several factors causes them to become addicted.
1. They live high stress lives.
2. They can get drugs very easily.
3. They arrogantly believe that they can control their usage, even though they know colleagues who have become addicted.

The process of addiction goes something like this.
1. They take pills to lift them up when they are exhausted.
2. They take pills to help them to relax and sleep when they are stressed out.
3. They become addicted to uppers, downers, or both.

They all learn in medical school that thousands of physicians have become addicts, but they arrogantly believe it can't happen to ME.

Don't take my word for it. Just do a google search for "drug addiction" and "physicians."

Hope to see you here again soon so we can argue about something else.

Your Buddy,

Al

I haven't read through every single post, but I will post my advice.

I believe you can, but you need to take it very slow.

Start at the micro stakes games. After something like 10k hands, when you are sure you can beat it, move up one level. Play 10k more hands, and so on.

Get pokertracker to track your results, and prove that you can beat a level. If you simply are not beating that level, either stick with it, or drop down if your bankroll dictates it. If at any point, you realize you cannot mentally handle the inevitible chip swings without going on tilt, give up.

[MTBlue]

Don't play. It's not worth it. I am a very successful poker player, I have won year to date almost 40 thousand dollars, but I am a poker addict. My grades have declined greatly down from a 4.0 fall semester to a 2.5 spring semester. Relationships with my family have become strained mainly due to my inability to quit playing. Often times the only thing on my mind is poker. Bottom line becoming successful at poker will not change your addiction, but more people will encourage you to gamble.

[IlliniRyRy]

In my sincere opinion, I think the odds are SERIOUSLY against you for becoming a winning player. That being said, it's certainly not impossible. I just think if someone has had the same bad habits time and time again, it becomes harder and harder to change. Akin to a big time drug addict who seriously has no chance to kick the habit, they're literally incapable physically and mentally. And listen, you should NEVER ever rely on poker income from month to month, you might not make a dime in a month sometimes even if you're Phil Ivey. You have to be prepared to handle the swings, if you're really relying on winning to pay the bills, you might have the tendency to play poorly because of the tension of paying your bils on time. As a poker player I guess I can't help but think in terms of probailiites and I'd say (and I bet others would agree) that you have about a 1 in 10 chance of succeeding based on what you wrote about yourself. When it all comes down to it though, its up to you and whether or not you have enough drive. You are the one that ultimately makes the outcome whatever you choose. Just my two cents.

[Vincent Lepore]

Hi Al,

We don't disagree about addiction. The following is from my previous post:

[ QUOTE ]
I do not know much about the causes of any addiction nor how to cure any of them. I used to believe that education was the key to freeing oneself from an addiction. I don't doubt that I was very wrong about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was speaking a bit toungue in cheek wihth regards to poker (gambling addiction aside). I may have, probably did, treat the subject of addiction to lightly. Sorry.

Oh, thanks for the kind words. I have found that over the past year or so that I have been a very angry so and so. This has come out in a lot of my recent posts here on 2 + 2. Andy Fox did me a great service by pointing this out to me. I think he's trying to take your job. Of course for old times sakes and out of respect I will certainly make a couch apointment with you the next time I go off my rocker. More folks should come to this Psychology forum of yours. Nothing is more important to playing winning poker than a sane mind. Unless of course you are Mike Caro. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Vince

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
#1) I am and have been a [gambling] addict for nearly a decade, losing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars [in poker].

#2) It has completely destroyed my life, in various ways and I can not deny this no matter what I try to tell myself.

[/ QUOTE ]
This would have been enough for the response I am about to give, for what it's worth anyway, but there's more on your status :
[ QUOTE ]
My problem ... is [that] even when I KNOW without a doubt, without any reason to doubt, and with the feeling deep down that I am beat... I will not drop. This is my first problem.
<font color="white"> . </font>
My second problem is I like the RUSH of playing big stake games, I would buy in for $200 I had that I could spare that week.. Buyin at the $1K NL Tables min buyin and either have a good week or bad week.. Eventually losing it all regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's enough.

I used to know quite a bit about substance addiction. Empirically speaking, the odds are extremely heavily stacked against
- a former alcoholic getting to be a wine connoisseur,
- a former cocaine junkie being able to "enjoy the occasional hit"
- a serial wife beater becoming a tender companion
- a compulsive gambler getting to be an advantage player
- etc.

[ QUOTE ]
I truly DO and have for a couple years now believe I am a good player when I play the game the way it should be played.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, you are deluding yourself. William Burroughs knew about drugs more than most doctors but he was still shooting up.

The single bright aspect of your condition is that you are aware of it - and seeking help. So carry the ball to the end line! There is one objective and one objective only : Quit gambling completely and forever.

You gotta identify the sources of your addiction-prone behavior and you gotta find other things to do, instead. You are possibly quite good at something other than poker, which you don't know yet. In any case, you should probably consider seeking professional help in this effort.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Vince,

Sorry to hear you've been angry. It's a very destructive emotion for anyone, but it is particularly bad for a poker player. By chance I wrote a series of articles on Anger Management that you can read at cardplayer.com.

Hope to see you soon.

Al

[MediaPA]

I'll throw my 2 cents into the ring. As Al expressed in poker terms, this is very negative EV. I haven't walked anywhere near the road that you seem to have in life or poker, but I admit to having a gambling problem.

I'd love to feel the way I used to playing 2/4 or 3/6 in a casino when I first started, but those days are over. I played online and got a taste for bigger action (taking the shot-you name it, I played it). I had my downs, swore off poker only to return a few weeks later and lose more. I just needed the action because honestly I hated my life (still do).

Every time I came back to the game, I would start out disciplined as you plan to do. I'd win, gain some confidence, but there's always be a fall. The temptation and ease of joining a bigger game is ever present. Get sucked out on, go on tilt, move up to recover quickly. Or, just take a shot for 'fun.' Wash, rinse, repeat. Even if you are disciplined, all it takes is one slip and instead of being where you started, you're much further behind.

Can it happen? Yes.

Would you make a bet on yourself? I wouldn't. You are inviting the temptation every time you play. Sure, you may resist for a while, but eventually you will lose. Poor comparison, but imagine having AA every hand and getting your money in the middle preflop. Poker players dream, right? Well, 12% of the time you'll lose it all. I don't think you have those kind of odds with your admitted problems. Long term, you'll in all likelihood end up far behind where you started.

I don't think you invite your other addictions back into your life on a daily basis. Why poker? It's seemingly been pretty destructive, if not as destructive as your other addictions.

Just my 2 cents. Do with it as you will.

[mockingbird]

Your post is confusing to me. You say you are absolutley sure you are an addict, but by definition an addict is someone who can not control their gambling or poker playing.

You are in serious denial and are on the same path to despair and disaster that you have obviously tread before. If you know you are an addict why are you going down the same rabbit hole again? Why not give yourself a break and leave it alone.

You can enjoy life without poker. Get some help to let it alone and work on having a fulfilling life.

Good Luck

i dont understand how you're dropping hundreds of thousands without a job... while supporting a wife and kids

[m1illion]

[ QUOTE ]

#1) I am and have been a poker addict for nearly a decade, losing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you ever play poker again, you will deserve what happens after.