Wait until the turn to raise? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : Wait until the turn to raise?

Baloosh

08-20-2005, 10:04 PM

Is this a classic example of when we should just call the flop, and wait until the turn to raise? Board was somewhat coordinated... and I wanted to make sure gutshots didn't get odds to call on the flop.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Paxosmotic

08-20-2005, 10:08 PM

No way. We have a staggeringly high equity edge in this hand, we need to push our edges while we can.

@bsolute_luck

08-20-2005, 10:08 PM

umm...no. your hand is too strong to wait.

Baloosh

08-20-2005, 10:11 PM

But then gutshots can call profitably for a single bet, and they would not be making a mistake to call on the flop, right?

Paxosmotic

08-20-2005, 10:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But then gutshots can call profitably for a single bet, and they would not be making a mistake to call on the flop, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Our raise is not to protect our hand, it is for value. It's the same action, you click the raise button, but we call it for value since draws can call profitably.

detruncate

08-20-2005, 10:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Is this a classic example of when we should just call the flop, and wait until the turn to raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Not even close. We're not worried about hand protection. We almost certainly have the best hand + the best draw. Our equity is huge. Ginormous even. We raise for value and hope it goes 4 bets 6-ways (and that nobody has AA in that case).

Bradyams

08-20-2005, 10:19 PM

I wish Ed Miller never would have put the section in SSHE about protecting your hand. This concept is misapplied way too much.

Anyway your flop raise does give the other callers insufficient odds to call with a gutshot. That's the least of our worries though. As far as I'm concerned I want those gutshots calling me, and I want them putting in as many bets as possible. You have a huge equity edge here, and the more bets everyone puts in the more money you make.

SoftcoreRevolt

08-20-2005, 10:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But then gutshots can call profitably for a single bet, and they would not be making a mistake to call on the flop, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't try to trap with monsters like this, just get bets in. There's no need to try to make people make mistakes to protect your hand, you want them in here.

bozlax

08-20-2005, 10:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a classic example of when we should just call the flop, and wait until the turn to raise? Board was somewhat coordinated... and I wanted to make sure gutshots didn't get odds to call on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got a HUGE equity edge. Push it now. Among other things, if a gutshot stays in, you've got better odds of making a boat than they do of making their straight.

4 players in a capped flop....mmmmmmmmmmm.

detruncate

08-20-2005, 10:32 PM

Gutshots are getting, what... 15:2 when you raise? They're probably ok with implied odds in this pot, but it's not a clearly profitable call. Let's assume they were getting correct odds. And that there's one out there. You still make money when they call correctly. Run through the math if you're not convinced (this is a serious suggestion, not a snarky "I'm right and you're wrong" sort of thing).

Don't take the nature of the responses the wrong way. People are trying to help you see that you're looking at this the wrong way.

08-20-2005, 10:40 PM

OK, here's a very similar hand from tonight, except I have position.
I decided not to 3 bet the flop, because I might be able to trap for 2BB on the flop. Does my position make enough of a difference to not push this all the way. I think MP3 would have slowed down a bit 3 bet.

My 1st cycle at the table, both SB & MP3 seem loose, but no solid reads.
Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, MP calls, CO raises, Hero calls, SB calls, MP calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, MP checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, MP folds, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, CO calls.

River: (20.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 32.50 BB

davelin

08-20-2005, 10:48 PM

Micro Commandment #1 - Thou shalt not slowplay sets

bozlax

08-20-2005, 11:36 PM

Looks like another case where you let a few SBs get away from you. MP might have hung in for a flop cap, bailed when it got hairy on the turn.

detruncate

08-20-2005, 11:51 PM

Welcome to the forum. You have everyone trapped on the flop, and unless SB 3-bets, waiting for the turn to raise will usually face everyone with 2 cold. Pop the flop. You slowplay to help people find a call when they would otherwise fold. You don't have to worry about this here (or in general most times), and SB or CO might cap.

I'm not sure whether capping the river is the right play, but I probably do it and I don't think it can be that bad if it's wrong, especially if SB calls.

Disconnected

08-20-2005, 11:55 PM

The classic example includes when the turn could dramatically affect your equity, either way. You wouldn't expect the turn to decrease your equity here, so push hard on the flop.

bottomset

08-20-2005, 11:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wish Ed Miller never would have put the section in SSHE about protecting your hand. This concept is misapplied way too much.

Anyway your flop raise does give the other callers insufficient odds to call with a gutshot. That's the least of our worries though. As far as I'm concerned I want those gutshots calling me, and I want them putting in as many bets as possible. You have a huge equity edge here, and the more bets everyone puts in the more money you make.

[/ QUOTE ]

its a very important section of the book, yes it gets misapplied a fair bit, but correctly applying concepts takes experience, no one just reads SSHE and is an expert the first day at the table

Baloosh

08-22-2005, 08:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Gutshots are getting, what... 15:2 when you raise? They're probably ok with implied odds in this pot, but it's not a clearly profitable call. Let's assume they were getting correct odds. And that there's one out there. You still make money when they call correctly. Run through the math if you're not convinced (this is a serious suggestion, not a snarky "I'm right and you're wrong" sort of thing).

Don't take the nature of the responses the wrong way. People are trying to help you see that you're looking at this the wrong way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, I sincerely appreciate all your guys' input. I'll be the first to admit I have too much to learn still about the game, and posting threads like this one go a long way in helping me notice the subtle difference between what is the correct play (raising at every opportunity?) and the incorrect (or not as-correct) play (slowplaying). Well, at least it was subtle to me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Again, thanks to all for the advice.

SCfuji

08-22-2005, 09:32 AM

you see how they went four bets happily on the flop with you? dont wait until the turn. he will probably even lead into you on the turn so you will get to raise again!