Tommy Franks Indispensible?

[David Sklansky]

Maybe he is but I doubt it. When I used the term "indispensible" in the thread below, I was thinking more along the lines of the developers of laser guided weapons or the guy who figured out how to calculate exactly where mortar fire is coming from. If we had to choose between him and Franks it wouldn't be close.

[Rick Nebiolo]

David,

Regarding mortar or artillery fire. the original "Firefinder" system was developed down the hall from the lab I worked in at Hughes Aircraft during the eighties. I don't know the details of the development since everything is done behind closed doors on a "need to know" basis but if it is like other military systems/projects it takes a lot of bright and dedicated people working together to get it right. Rarely is there one "key" person, and social/political skills tend to matter in bringing the system together.

Below is a link to the Firefinder:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/www/263.htm

Regards,

Rick

[scalf]

/forums/images/icons/wink.gif poker has some gr8 people who make gr8 friends...

but it also attracts people with very marginal people skills; and that's why they get involved in poker; they can communicate by shoving chips into center of table; and do it well enuf to survive...jmho..gl /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

[Clarkmeister]

If a single person in our military is indispensible then we did a horrific job of constructing our military.

[Lee Jones]

[David Sklansky]

Whether we like it or not, our military is as stong as it is because of codebreaking or technology undersood well by only a handful of people. If they tried to put themselves in a position where they wouldn't depend on them we would be significantly weaker.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

But this has certainly happened in our history. The death of Stonewall Jackson (and to a lessor extent) A.S. Johnston may have cost the South the Civil war. Also, if Grant didn't come out of nowhere, the North may not have won either.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Clarkmeister]

1. A "handful of people" isn't a single person.
2. I "significantly weaker" isn't the same as indespensible.
3. I somehow think we'd still be defeating Iraq even if every codebreaker we employ suddenly died of SARS tomorrow.

[Clarkmeister]

Hi Mason,

I don't want to be argumentative, but as far as I am concerned, Stonewall Jackson was not part of "our" military.

Anyways, even if it were conceded that we had indespensible personell 140 years ago, that doesn't change the fact that if we constructed our military that way today it would be a potentially catostrophic mistake.

[exeph]

Ok, but David's point is really more about the potential contribution of exceptional people than the structure of organizations. Point being: a genius can make unparalleled achievements, particularly in developing new theories/technologies, and despite the fact that in an ideal world you wouldn't choose to depend on a jerk/ego case your best interests still lie in leveraging his ability

[Clarkmeister]

And my point is that while David may be indespensible to TwoPlusTwo publushing (and I doubt that he is at this point), it doesn't matter. The fact that the David didn't like the guy's analogy doesn't change the fact that he should still just say "Sorry bout that". Instead he's trying to get off on a technicality, and its a technicality that I think is bogus.

In other words, if he just said "I don't think I owe him an apology", that would have been one thing, but to say "I don't owe him an apology because his analogy is bad" is ridiculous.

At least, its ridiculous IMHO. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

OK, I'm done with this one. I'll let the rest of you debate whether or not we could unseat Hussein without our codebreakers. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[mike l.]

"may have cost the South the Civil war. Also, if Grant didn't come out of nowhere, the North may not have won either."

so then what? a chopped pot?

take this boring war crap over to the other topics forum where it belongs and let's get back to talking about what dynasty thinks of the cocktail girls at the orleans or whatever.

[brad]

modern military and civil war military has afaik a nearly identical heirarchy.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

OK.

Would the Continental Army had held together without Washington?

Would our casulties had been tripled in the Pacific with a different General than MacArthur (who employed the island hoping strategy)?

Was Westmorland a disaster in Viet Nam?

And how necessary was Patton in WWII?

And how is it that Crook understood how to defeat the
Apaches where other generals had failed?

There are many examples in our history where it's clear that a different general would have made a big difference.

Best wishes,
Mason

[AceHigh]

Our military is the strongest in the world because we have the best economy in the world.

Countries like the USSR go broke trying to keep up with us.

How important do you think code breaking is against a country like Iraq? We have drone planes that are in the sky 24 hours a day, watching there every move. We don't need to know there plans in advance because we can see it as soon as it happens. The United State's complete control of the air, makes it tough for them to move in response to us, and doing so exposes them to the largest Air Force in the world.

[AceHigh]

"may have cost the South the Civil war"

Jackson would have helped prevent defeats like Gettysburg, he would not have won the war for the South. Stonewall was in the East, he could not have prevented Vicksburg and other Union victories in the west and still served Lee at Gettysburg, etc. Lincoln losing the election of 1864 is probably the only thing that could have saved the South. Eventually the Union Army would get competent generals, look how many exceptional ones they eventually found in the West (Grant, Sherman, Sheridan).

"if Grant didn't come out of nowhere"

Grant didn't come out of nowhere, he was a hero in the Mexican-American war and had graduated from West Point.

[AceHigh]

"different General than MacArthur "

He didn't do so well the first time he took on the Japanese with the Fillipino Army, did he?

"Was Westmorland a disaster in Viet Nam?"

Yes, but McNamara was even worse, with a different boss Westmorland might have been replaced or encouraged to change.

"Patton in WWII?"

He was important, but he wasn't even involved at D-day. So, I doubt Ike saw him as irreplacable. And if D-day failed it might have been taken years until we could have liberated Western Europe.

[RiverMel]

There are many examples in our history where it's clear that a different general would have made a big difference.

Of course a different person would have made a difference. How exactly are you in a position to say that no other person could have done as good if not a better job? I believe you know something about history, but I also believe that no one knows nearly enough about history to make the claim that "if it weren't for person X, there is no way event Y would have happened," or "no one could have done as good a job achieving goal Y as person X." It's simply impossible to say how things would have turned out if they had been--well, different.

[Zeno]

Mason,

General Cook was successful in reining in most Apaches and he did secure a conditional surrender of Geronimo. But Geronimo subsequently escaped and fled. General Cook was replaced by General Nelson A. Miles who, with about about 5,000 troops and 500 Indian auxiliaries, finally secured Geronimo’s surrender in 1888 (I think that’s right). The Army troops just mucked around in the desert and got shot at, it was the Indian auxiliaries and scouts that really “forced” Geronimo’s surrender along with his determined rag-tag band. This occurred in southeastern New Mexico and I hiked to the very spot, and surrounding area, that the surrender took place a bit more than 100 years after it took place. It has not changed a bit.

So the Indians were indispensable in getting other Indians. This was a recurrent theme and played out in similar fashion in a rather small and very interesting Indian war that occurred near Tule Lake, in Northern California, called The Modoc Indian War. See, “The Modocs and Their War” by Keith A. Murray (University of Oklahoma Press). It is a fascinating book about political chicanery, war, revenge, cultural clash, betrayal, and, some Army bungling. An indispensable book. I think you would enjoy it.

Regards,

Zeno

[Zeno]

The year of Geronimo's final surrender was 1886. Near Southwestern New Mexico ("the boot heel"), not Southeastern. In Skeleton Canyon at edge of the Peloncillo Mts. which may actually be in Arizona, near the border with New Mexico. Enough.

-Zeno

[Sredni Vashtar]

Mrs. De Ropp had been under the impression she was indispensable.

General Franks seems wise enough to realize he isn't.

Sredni Vashtar

[David Sklansky]

That if it weren't for a few specific individuals like Leo Szilard, or Alan Turing, hundreds of thousands of Americans and others would have died. And they don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Most haven't even heard of them. I suspect there are similar individuals who are responsible for our present military superiority and even I haven't heard of them.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Mason,

Wasn't it Nimitz who employed island hoping in the Pacific driving in from the east while MacArthur was responsible for the southern offensive?

~ Rick

[CrackerZack]

These statements are accurate, but the one about Grant in the civil war from the previous post was not. He had superior fire power, industry and nearly twice the personnel in his battles against the south. Lee was 5x the leader and stategist Grant was, Grant just had the numbers and the firepower on his side.

-Zack

[El Dukie]

Having worked on OPSEC & Industrial Security while on active duty, I hope most of us never do hear about them....

While being recognized for your efforts can be a great thing, it can also tip off an adversary as to what you're working on and what your capabilities are. It was only recently that the DoD openly acknowledged the individuals who were involved in the original CORONA project -- the first series of imagery satellites from the early 1960s.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Big Lick:

You need to lead about Grant's campaign in Mississippi leading up to the seige of Vicksburg. You will see that he was also a top strategiest.

Best wishes,
Mason

[andyfox]

I think your point is a good one. Our lives have been greatly influenced by the seminal insights of a few specific individuals about whom most people are only dimly aware.

Szilard himself was against the use of the bombs.

http://www.peak.org/~danneng/decision/usnews.html