It's the Marginal Hand Hoedown [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Eeegah

08-20-2005, 05:06 PM

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I'm a bit more concerned about a flop like 379 and spending 3BB to find out we were called down by a scared 9.

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If you're spending 3BB postflop after seeing a 379 flop, you've got other problems.

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Such is what was said in this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3185840&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) thread. I imply that if I have A7o for some reason and the flop comes 379 4 handed or whatever, I'm betting every street until someone raises my ass. Others imply that I'm crazy. So am I taking these marginal situations too far?

Here's a couple of hands from today's session where I went ahead and took the reins. The table is quite a bit more fishy than what I'd expect for Stars .50/1: none of the villains in these hands have VPIPs under 40. My hands here might be best, might not, but my opponents are passive enough to not raise me with top pair. Anyone see any adjustments I should be making to my lines? I know I'm having trouble recognizing when I can bet marginal hands on the river for value, should I have done so in the second hand given the blank turn?

Hand 1:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (5 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

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Hand 2, two hands later:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, CO folds.

River: (6.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

Vote4Pedro

08-20-2005, 05:11 PM

what the [censored] is a hoedown?

Hand1: Lovely
Hand2: Bet the river Eeegah...bet the river

grjr

08-20-2005, 05:14 PM

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Such is what was said in this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3185840&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) thread. I imply that if I have A7o for some reason and the flop comes 379 4 handed or whatever, I'm betting every street until someone raises my ass.

River: (6.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

benkath1

08-20-2005, 05:18 PM

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what the [censored] is a hoedown?

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A redneck jam session. I know you Californians wouldn't understand. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Hand2: Bet the river Eeegah...bet the river

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chiachu

08-20-2005, 05:22 PM

Hand 1:
I would just check behind on the river

Hand 2:
I would check the flop, too many people in the hand for me to want to bet... but ill admit it does feel weak

Eeegah

08-21-2005, 12:42 AM

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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So then what's the difference between this hand and what I was proposing in the link above? Middle pair, top kicker, bet every street until someone says otherwise, right?

Anyway, amusingly enough both villains had A8; I lost the first hand and won the second. I'd have come out ahead if I'd bet the river the 2nd time /images/graemlins/frown.gif

grjr

08-21-2005, 12:53 AM

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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So then what's the difference between this hand and what I was proposing in the link above? Middle pair, top kicker, bet every street until someone says otherwise, right?

Anyway, amusingly enough both villains had A8; I lost the first hand and won the second. I'd have come out ahead if I'd bet the river the 2nd time /images/graemlins/frown.gif

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If you look at the parts I bolded you'll see I was making fun of the fact that you said you would bet every street until someone raised your ass but then posted an example where you checked the river.
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Hojglad

08-21-2005, 04:47 AM

In hand 2, value bet the river. As far as you should be concerned, that river card is the 17 of purple horseshoes. If you think you had the best hand on the turn, there is an extremely high probability that you still have the best hand on the river.

Nit. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

deepsquat

08-21-2005, 05:47 AM

Hand1- 10000% standrad, anything less would be extremely weak/tight.

Hand2- Depending on my read on villain i prob value bet here. If villain is loose this is any really easy value bet, if he is a bit of a mouse i check/behind here. He will be on a flush draw quite often here probably.

deepsquat

08-21-2005, 05:48 AM

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Hand 1:
I would just check behind on the river

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gay

Aaron W.

08-21-2005, 11:16 AM

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I'm a bit more concerned about a flop like 379 and spending 3BB to find out we were called down by a scared 9.

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If you're spending 3BB postflop after seeing a 379 flop, you've got other problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Such is what was said in this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3185840&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) thread. I imply that if I have A7o for some reason and the flop comes 379 4 handed or whatever, I'm betting every street until someone raises my ass. Others imply that I'm crazy. So am I taking these marginal situations too far?

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These two hands are fine (I'd raise KTs in hand #2, so K9s might come in for a raise sometimes). You can sometimes value bet the second one, but make sure you know who you're betting into. It seems that a large number of players here assume that everybody is calling with bottom pair and ace high all the time.

You also need to look at the board texture when you value bet the river. I'm more inclined to value bet the river when the flop comes AJ3 instead of A73 (as in the first example). The jack coming on the turn is nice because it gives the other players more of a reason to call down (especially if they peel on the flop with weak hands).

In the 973 flop (assuming no overcards fall by the river), I'm more inclined to check second pair because I'm not getting paid off by whiffed overcards, and a scared J9 (especially after a PFR) is more likely than someone calling down with T3o.