Playing against a MANIAC [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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grjr

08-20-2005, 04:16 PM

I haven't seen this mentioned for a while and I just happened to run across this hand while looking at something else. I was playing the hand back and couldn't figure out what I was doing. Then I looked at Villain's (CO) stats.

If all the maniacs in the world had a convention and a card game broke out all the other maniacs would think this guy is nuts. Over 247 hands his stats were 80/65/8. You would think the 8AF was almost impossible when coupled with the 80 but it wasn't.

If CO here saw the flop chances are he wasn't folding. His WTSD% was 65% and would have been higher if everyone didn't keep folding to him. Obviously he will bet and raise with anything. Interestly enough, over those 247 hands he only lost $1.63.

Anyways, here is the hand. MP2 was 30/5/.5 after 91 hands. You can debate my play up to the river if you like but what I really want to know is what do you do on the river and why?

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero???

bozlax

08-20-2005, 04:25 PM

I chuck it. With MP hanging around with his 0.5 PFA, he's gotta have a better piece of this than a 6. Could be a long-shot flush draw and he folds behind you, but I doubt it, given he called 2 cold on the flop.

08-20-2005, 04:26 PM

Call! You're getting at least 12.75-1 so there's no reason to fold now. You probably should have folded on the flop. You might have the maniac beaten but there's two other players in the pot as well.

PokerSparky

08-20-2005, 04:31 PM

I can't put MP2 on anything that doesn't beat you. Combine that with the fact that CO may very well have you beat, and I think this is a fold.

bozlax

08-20-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You might have the maniac beaten but there's two other players in the pot as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but you're one of 'em. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Vote4Pedro

08-20-2005, 04:34 PM

Raise or fold the river...Theres no way your bottom pair is gonna beat whatever MPs been calling with, facing him with 2BB might get him to fold a Q. Personally, I fold.

08-20-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You might have the maniac beaten but there's two other players in the pot as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but you're one of 'em. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant that there were 2 more players on the flop that could have him beaten. On the other hand, a raise might force a J out.

detruncate

08-20-2005, 07:06 PM

The flop play is debatable, and depends on how often you'll get it HU. I don't hate it, but I'd prefer it with a stronger pair or a BD nut flush draw given the possibility of multiway action and the near certainty that you're going to be 3-bet. Spiking an ace has a fairly strong possiblility of creating redraws for any fairly reasonable opponent who calls your raise. We have a poor hand mulitway, and aren't usually going to be a huge favourite HU given the combined possiblities of Villain having paired or having overcards to our 6.

I'd think about raising the turn. You'd much prefer to play this out without MP2. You'll often have CO beaten and MP2 has a hard time calling 2 BB without a strong hand or draw.

If you're going to call this river you should raise instead. You don't want overcalls. Foregoing a turn raise in favour of raising a river brick seems like a reasonable alternative. Calling this river doesn't.

08-20-2005, 08:06 PM

Looks to me like you played this hand in a manner which normally would have been way too strong preflop and on the flop, in an attempt to take on the maniac, isolate him, and go heads up against him.

By the turn, it seemed to have failed, MP2 was still in there, and you hung in as you had pot odds to continue.

Given that you didn't bet the turn, you had already given up on knocking out MP2, so now to me this looks like you're obviously beaten on the river.

But.... CO probably has nothing, and MP2 may have been on a flush draw and also have nothing. You have the odds to call the river bet, as there is a significant chance that neither of them has a pair. Less than 50% chance, probably, but even if you have a 20% chance of being ahead, it makes sense to call.

grjr

08-20-2005, 10:56 PM

Here's the rest of the hand. I posted this hand because a lot of people wouldn't even consider raising the river here. It's not a play that comes up very often but it's something to keep in the back of your mind.

River: (11.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB.
Results in white below:
CO has Ac 9c (high card ace.)
Hero has 6c As (a pair of sixes.)
Hero wins 17.00 BB.

Vote4Pedro

08-20-2005, 11:05 PM

Nice post

Redd

08-20-2005, 11:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You might have the maniac beaten but there's two other players in the pot as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but you're one of 'em. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the players in the pot, or one of the maniacs? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Buccaneer

08-20-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If all the maniacs in the world had a convention and a card game broke out all the other maniacs would think this guy is nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

This actually happened this morning on Party. They all came to my table about 7 of them. I am still trying to figure out how once they got there that no one made a dime unless they played above 67% preflop and if you played less than 30% you lost big time.

bozlax

08-20-2005, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am still trying to figure out how once they got there that no one made a dime unless they played above 67% preflop and if you played less than 30% you lost big time.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're all still trying to figure out why they found you so damned attractive!

Buccaneer

08-20-2005, 11:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
They're all still trying to figure out why they found you so damned attractive!

[/ QUOTE ]

Good reply!!!

J. Stew

08-20-2005, 11:48 PM

I'd call the river if I got there but I think the maniac has only lost $1.63 because people call him down with weak hands when he catches hands better than a pair of sixes. Why not kill him with your good hands? I'd probably play more low pp's than normal and take his money with my sets.

grjr

08-21-2005, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call the river if I got there but I think the maniac has only lost $1.63 because people call him down with weak hands when he catches hands better than a pair of sixes. Why not kill him with your good hands? I'd probably play more low pp's than normal and take his money with my sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think he only lost that much because people kept folding to his unrelenting aggression. Seems like he was up $70 or $80 at one time then lost it all back. Maybe people had started to call down more and that's why he started losing. I can't remember though.

Bottomset was there at that table too. Hey Bottomset, this was table 31003 on 6/24/05. Do you have any other info on Bubbapedro?

08-21-2005, 12:31 AM

In general, when up against a complete maniac, I like to reraise preflop in an attempt to isolate. Some tables won't let you do this, but if the table is generally passive other than the maniac, that would be my preferred play.

bottomset

08-21-2005, 12:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bottomset was there at that table too. Hey Bottomset, this was table 31003 on 6/24/05. Do you have any other info on Bubbapedro?

[/ QUOTE ]

damn dude thats an old hand, I looked the hand up, you started with just 11.25 naughty naughty .. don't want to miss that .75of EV

anyway he was 86/75 in my DB over 50hands .. don't remember anything else about the hand or session in question

its def. a gutsy river c/r

grjr

08-21-2005, 01:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]

its def. a gutsy river c/r

[/ QUOTE ]

Matter of fact, I think you typed that in the chat window after the hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

detruncate

08-21-2005, 01:10 AM

I completely missed the pf call, which I think is poor. Also not a great opportunity to isolate with a raise. Yes, you have good relative position. I still don't think it's a profitable call.

grjr

08-21-2005, 01:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I completely missed the pf call, which I think is poor. Also not a great opportunity to isolate with a raise. Yes, you have good relative position. I still don't think it's a profitable call.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO was raising EVERY hand. You have to dig your heels in once in a while and I got in cheap.

detruncate

08-21-2005, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I completely missed the pf call, which I think is poor. Also not a great opportunity to isolate with a raise. Yes, you have good relative position. I still don't think it's a profitable call.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO was raising EVERY hand. You have to dig your heels in once in a while and I got in cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with that sentiment. But A6o mulitiway? No thanks.

Hojglad

08-21-2005, 04:35 AM

Your play on the river mimics exactly what I would have done in this scenario.

... "when you don't want overcalls." Vnh sir. You made MP2 fold a better hand.

08-21-2005, 09:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I completely missed the pf call, which I think is poor. Also not a great opportunity to isolate with a raise. Yes, you have good relative position. I still don't think it's a profitable call.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO was raising EVERY hand. You have to dig your heels in once in a while and I got in cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not worried about the CO raiser, I am worried about the other callers in the pot. I would only play A6o if I could get the pot HU against the maniac. That is why I would either raise or fold this preflop. I do not like calling.

jrz1972

08-21-2005, 10:20 AM

True, you need to dig in your heels once in a while, but you need to do a better job of picking your spots.

A6o HU against a maniac = /images/graemlins/cool.gif
A6o OOP multiway = /images/graemlins/frown.gif

TomBrooks

08-21-2005, 04:38 PM

PREFLOP CALL: Terrible. A6o in the SB is not even a complete, never mind calling a raise. Check it in your position stats.

FLOP RAISE: Awful. Your behind and drawing to 6 outs if your lucky.

TURN CALL: Good with 9 nine outs in this now inflated pot.

RIVER: Recommend: FOLD

DIAGNOSIS: Yikes! It looks like you were trying to beat the maniac by becoming somewhat manicidal yourself or you had gone on tilt.

grjr

08-21-2005, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PREFLOP CALL: Terrible. A6o in the SB is not even a complete, never mind calling a raise. Check it in your position stats.

FLOP RAISE: Awful. Your behind and drawing to 6 outs if your lucky.

TURN CALL: Good with 9 nine outs in this now inflated pot.

RIVER: Recommend: FOLD

DIAGNOSIS: Yikes! It looks like you were trying to beat the maniac by becoming somewhat manicidal yourself or you had gone on tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Axo is almost an auto complete from the SB for me. A6o is probably an always complete.

You can't count my preflop call in this hand as calling a raise because the villain was raising EVERY hand. Therefore it was more like completing in the SB with no raise which I've already said I do.

I've been known to tilt at times (ok, a bunch of times) but there was none here.

TomBrooks

08-21-2005, 07:25 PM

Hi gr,

Check your SB Position stats for AXo in the SB.

I started a thread about A9o in the SB about 4 months ago, and when I looked into it more, I found out A9o was a marginal complete. Most responders agreed. I took a look but can't find the thread. I continued completing with A9o-A7o for a while after that but kept an eye on them, and eventually decided they were all -EV.

grjr

08-21-2005, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi gr,

Check your SB Position stats for AXo in the SB.

I started a thread about A9o in the SB about 4 months ago, and when I looked into it more, I found out A9o was a marginal complete. Most responders agreed. I took a look but can't find the thread. I continued completing with A9o-A7o for a while after that but kept an eye on them, and eventually decided they were all -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

A2o -0.25bb/hand break even

A3o -0.63bb/hand bad

A4o -0.33BB/hand not AS bad

A5o -.50BB/hand bad

A6o -.17BB/hand better than folding

A7o -0.05BB/hand even better

A8o +0.20BB/hand alright

A9o +0.67BB/hand now we're talkin

ATo 0.00BB/hand weird

Now that you mention this I remember looking at these a couple of months ago and actually stopped playing A5o and below from the SB. Somewhere along the line that slipped my mind so I thank you for reminding me. I'll be knocking off those completes from now on.

I still defend my choice of calling the A6o in this hand though. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

TomBrooks

08-22-2005, 01:09 AM

I was just thinking.....if you always folded a hand from the SB, your loss with that hand from that position would be .5BB/hand.

So if you play it and it is a loser, but it's average loss winds up less than .5BB/hand, you would be making money by completing with it, or more specifically, you would be losing less with it than if you always folded it.

Is that correct?

Paxosmotic

08-22-2005, 01:13 AM

08-22-2005, 07:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi gr,

Check your SB Position stats for AXo in the SB.

I started a thread about A9o in the SB about 4 months ago, and when I looked into it more, I found out A9o was a marginal complete. Most responders agreed. I took a look but can't find the thread. I continued completing with A9o-A7o for a while after that but kept an eye on them, and eventually decided they were all -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

A2o -0.25bb/hand break even

A3o -0.63bb/hand bad

A4o -0.33BB/hand not AS bad

A5o -.50BB/hand bad

A6o -.17BB/hand better than folding

A7o -0.05BB/hand even better

A8o +0.20BB/hand alright

A9o +0.67BB/hand now we're talkin

ATo 0.00BB/hand weird

Now that you mention this I remember looking at these a couple of months ago and actually stopped playing A5o and below from the SB. Somewhere along the line that slipped my mind so I thank you for reminding me. I'll be knocking off those completes from now on.

I still defend my choice of calling the A6o in this hand though. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your choice of just calling the A6o in this hand is horrible, and I don't care how much you defend it. The pot is not heads up against the maniac, the pot is multiway. What possible card are you hoping to hit? An ace and get out kicked? Trip sixes? You need to either raise to isolate the maniac (if your read on the limpers show they are not all-out calling stations) or fold and save your money.

If you are this hard headed about taking advice (from four people, not just me), I hope to play against you some time. I like money.

MATT111

08-22-2005, 08:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]

TURN CALL: Good with 9 nine outs in this now inflated pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

It`s 7 to be very optimistic.

jrz1972

08-22-2005, 08:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was just thinking.....if you always folded a hand from the SB, your loss with that hand from that position would be .5BB/hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to be a nit, but it would be .25 BB/hand.

Any hand that does better than (0.25) in the SB is a "winner" relative to folding.

jrz1972

08-22-2005, 08:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You can't count my preflop call in this hand as calling a raise because the villain was raising EVERY hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does that tell you about the two guys who limped in in front of the maniac, knowing full well that they were about to get raised?

SCfuji

08-22-2005, 09:12 AM

i like doing this on the turned King rather than the harmless river three.

grjr

08-22-2005, 09:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was just thinking.....if you always folded a hand from the SB, your loss with that hand from that position would be .5BB/hand.

So if you play it and it is a loser, but it's average loss winds up less than .5BB/hand, you would be making money by completing with it, or more specifically, you would be losing less with it than if you always folded it.

Is that correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like JRZ said if you fold every hand in the SB you lose .25BB/hand which is why I labeled A2o as "break even". Every hand you fold from the BB costs you .50BB/hand which is why I don't mind calling a single raise with some marginal stuff.

grjr

08-22-2005, 10:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi gr,

Check your SB Position stats for AXo in the SB.

I started a thread about A9o in the SB about 4 months ago, and when I looked into it more, I found out A9o was a marginal complete. Most responders agreed. I took a look but can't find the thread. I continued completing with A9o-A7o for a while after that but kept an eye on them, and eventually decided they were all -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

A2o -0.25bb/hand break even

A3o -0.63bb/hand bad

A4o -0.33BB/hand not AS bad

A5o -.50BB/hand bad

A6o -.17BB/hand better than folding

A7o -0.05BB/hand even better

A8o +0.20BB/hand alright

A9o +0.67BB/hand now we're talkin

ATo 0.00BB/hand weird

Now that you mention this I remember looking at these a couple of months ago and actually stopped playing A5o and below from the SB. Somewhere along the line that slipped my mind so I thank you for reminding me. I'll be knocking off those completes from now on.

I still defend my choice of calling the A6o in this hand though. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your choice of just calling the A6o in this hand is horrible, and I don't care how much you defend it. The pot is not heads up against the maniac, the pot is multiway. What possible card are you hoping to hit? An ace and get out kicked? Trip sixes? You need to either raise to isolate the maniac (if your read on the limpers show they are not all-out calling stations) or fold and save your money.

If you are this hard headed about taking advice (from four people, not just me), I hope to play against you some time. I like money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, it's just 50 cents. It's not like I make a habit out of calling raises in the BB with A6o (I don't). This was a special situation. If you wouldn't call here that's fine but don't act like I'm some donk for doing it.

Maybe your thinking is a little skewed since this time the Maniac happened to have A9s. If I had known that, then no, I wouldn't have called. The thing is, the Maniac's hand is just a random hand preflop and A6o is good against a random hand. The other two players just limped in so I doubt they have a powerhouse hand and since I'm the BB there's no one behind me we haven't heard from yet.

As far as the other players a raise preflop is not going to get them to fold (it would just bloat the pot) so I waited to see if I hit any part of the flop. I did hit part of the flop so I raised to try and fold the others. Folded one and got one caller.

Now we come to the turn. If I don't improve I'm done with the hand. Luckily I hit a card that gave me some extra outs so I'll call one more to see the river.

On the river the 3 doesn't help me but it probably doesn't help anyone else either. Mp2 checks and Maniac bets and now I have 2 choices, fold or raise. If I fold I'm definately not winning. If I raise you have to think how that looks from MP2's position. He has to call 2 BB's with probably an underpair and for all he knows I hit a set on the river or slowed played the straight from the turn. Why would I raise if I couldn't beat top pair?

In my original post I said y'all can debate my play up to the river but I didn't say I would necessarily agree with 4 posters (!) who think the preflop call was "horrible". Fact is, I didn't post the hand for advice. I posted it to show a concept that hasn't been discussed much here. Try not to get too caught up in a 50 cent nit and miss the point of the whole thread.

Final added thought: I you want to talk "horrible" then go back through the thread and see how many people said to just call on the river. That, to me, is "horrible" in this particular situation.