Affirmative Action and Supreme Court

[John Cole]

Spent much of last night listening to the justices grill lawyers from both sides, and for some reason, found the proceedings fascinating. I have begun to suspect I have no life, but, nevertheless, I felt it was time well spent.

Earlier, reporters took statements from people outside the court who had come to support affirmative action policies, and interviewed a couple opponents of affirmative action.

Perhaps I'm getting a bit punchy, but when one respondent said he opposed affirmative action, I was waiting for the reporter to ask if he supported the troops.

John

[andyfox]

Is there really much suspense in how this court is going to rule? Isn't this the court that told Florida to stop their recount on Friday because they were going to make a ruling on Monday? Wasn't too tough a guess as to what that ruling was going to be on Monday, especially now that we know Ms. O'Connor, upon hearing Gore had carried Florida and thus won the election, had said, "Oh no."

Has anyone read John Dean's book on the Rehnquist appointment?

[MMMMMM]

I don't recall the details about the recounts, nor did I follow the issue closely at the time--but weren't there 3 or 4 recounts, all with essentially the same results? How many recounts did they need?

[andyfox]

The Florida statute gave the recounters until a certain date to finish their recount. They recounters were going to work all weekend to try to get done by the deadline. The Supreme Court, which was going to consider the case over the weekend and rule on Monday, told Florida to stop counting on Friday. If they ruled in favor of the Dems, the counting would matter. If they ruled in favor of the Reps, the counting would be useless because their ruling would overrule the Florida Supreme Court's ruling that the recount should go forward.

So it is evident the Supreme Court had come to a conclusion before it came to a conclusion. I have no doubt a Court with a Dem majority would have done the same thing. (That's what happened in Florida.) Politics are politics. But let's not deny it happened. With more Dems on the Supreme Court, Gore "wins" the election.

BTW, I have a lot of Democratic friends who blame Ralph Nader for Gore's loss. How about blaming Gore for running such a piss-poor campaign? If he carries his own home state, he wins the election. Seems like poor form to me to blame a guy who gets 2% of the vote for costing you an election when you don't carry your own home state.

[John Cole]

Andy,

Still, simply listening to the give and take, for me anyway, proved interesting. I wish I could remember the exact words, but Scalia, while listening to the lawyer representing the challenger said, in effect, "C'mon, you really don't believe that, do you?"

As for the decision, maybe Clarkmeister has the current odds.

John

[adios]

What is affirmative action anyway? Can you give a precise definition? I don't think it's strict racial or gender quotas anymonre is it? For example many hiring processes put in place at companies aren't particularly objective ones so I quite honestly don't know what the policy is for preventing racial and gender discrimination for instance.

[John Cole]

Tom,

Here's a link to a very good site that offers a diversity of opinion of the various issues involved.

http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/

[nicky g]

"How about blaming Gore for running such a piss-poor campaign? If he carries his own home state, he wins the election. "

In Greg palast's book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" he hints that Gore actually won Tennessee, and it was rigged. I have now idea how he figured that one out. But to be fair to Gore he would have won by several tens of thousand votes in California if:

50,000 people hadn't have been wrongly denied their voting rights (including felons conviciteed int other states who were denied the right to vote, which is illegal under florida law, and people incorrectly identified as felons)

and

the voting machines had have been programmed to return faulty ballots to the voter in poorer blacker districts, the way they were in richer whiter districts.

[B-Man]

So it is evident the Supreme Court had come to a conclusion before it came to a conclusion. I have no doubt a Court with a Dem majority would have done the same thing. (That's what happened in Florida.) Politics are politics. But let's not deny it happened. With more Dems on the Supreme Court, Gore "wins" the election.

Andy,

I disagreed with the Supreme Court's decision because I thought it was a a black eye on the Court, which is supposed to be above political disputes... but I do recognize the argument then enough is enough when it comes to recounts. How many bites at the apple is Gore entitled to?

Also, how can you say, "With more Dems on the Supreme Court, Gore "wins" the election"? Why are you so certain that if the final recount had been allowed to continue, the results would have been different?

How about blaming Gore for running such a piss-poor campaign? If he carries his own home state, he wins the election. Seems like poor form to me to blame a guy who gets 2% of the vote for costing you an election when you don't carry your own home state.

Agreed. He ran a terrible campaign and in the end should only be blaming himself, not the Supreme Court. That election was very winnable.

[B-Man]

I think they will uphold the Constitution.

Race-based discrimination by a public school is unconstitutional. While the goals of affirmative action may be honorable, what it boils down to is that the policy in question is unconstitutional racial discrimination. Michigan is simply using a disguised quota.

I don't think the Court will flatly prohibit all AA, but they will be more restrictive about what is permissible. Schools can find other ways to get a diverse student body, such as giving preferential treatnment to economically disadvantaged students of all races.

[adios]

"I have now idea how he figured that one out. But to be fair to Gore he would have won by several tens of thousand votes in California if:

50,000 people hadn't have been wrongly denied their voting rights (including felons conviciteed int other states who were denied the right to vote, which is illegal under florida law, and people incorrectly identified as felons)"

I think Gore won California didn't he?

[brad]

obviously meant florida

[adios]

The Florida Supreme court had a majority of Democrats serving so let's not forget that fact. The fact of the matter is that in order to be totally fair a recount of all of the ballots should have been done not just the precints where Democrats would fair best. To a large extent the Democrats did get their recount under some very questionable conditions regarding fairness and legality where Democrats were in charge of determining whether or not a ballot that was suspect (indented hole but not punched through, hanging chad etc.) was legitimate. Then the bruhaha which Nicky alluded too about the voters not understanding how to mark a ballot and I believe the claim was that they voted for Buchanon by mistake. Jesse Jackson actually was screaming about a re-vote of all things. There wasn't any Republican conspiracy involved in that. If people don't mark their ballots correctly and don't ask for help what can be done? Who really knows how true it was? How about the arguably liberally biased networks like NBC coming out and declaring Gore the winner in Florida while the polls were still open in Florida. The Democrats played hardball with fighting and winning the exclusion of absentee military personnel ballots that they figured wouldn't them much. In my opinion the Democrats conduct in Florida was reprehensible.

[brad]

i still dont understand how the federal supreme court can have any say in the matter.

[nicky g]

sorry, yes, meant florida.

[nicky g]

"If people don't mark their ballots correctly and don't ask for help what can be done? Who really knows how true it was? "

The point I was trying to make was that, in some wards, faulty ballots were rejected by the machines and returned to the voters, so they could revote properly. I'm not talking about ones where people accidentally voted for Buchanan, but ballots where people accidentally voted for 2 candidates, didn't push the pencil the whole way through, etc. In other wards, the machines simply ate the ballots and disguarded them as "spoiled.". The wards where faulty ballots were eaten were overwhelmingly poorer, blacker districts. Vastly more votes were not counted in districts with a higher black population than in largely white districts (around 9% in the 4 blackest counties, compared to around 2% in the whitest counties, according to the Palast book).

[MMMMMM]

Here's an interesting perspective on Affirmative Action by Thomas Sowell. On first reading, I don't find fault with his arguments. He doesn't adress all the effects and implications of Affirmative Action (and these too are of course important), but I think he does a pretty good job of demonstrating at least one argument against it.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20030403.shtml

Regarding a different point, a few months ago I saw a chart of the chances for students to be admitted to U.Michigan based on test scores and race. I wish I had the link or could recall it exactly, but the gist is this: the chances for very high or very low test-scoring students (say top/bottom 10%) weren't impacted by the race points. However for those not at the extreme ends, the effect was immense--something like 80-90% chance vs. 10-20% chance--depending on race--to be admitted based on the same test scores. In other words, race appeared to be weighted far too heavily--the points assigned for being of certain races seemed to be disproportionately large in comparison to total overall points possible. I think nearly half of all possible points might have been based on race (again I wish I had the link since I only looked at the chart briefly and my memory could be off). The question of whether race should be weighted at all is another matter.

I'll take a closer look at the link you provided elsewhere in this thread next week after I return from a long weekend trip--getting ready to go now--later;-).



http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20030403.shtml

[B-Man]

Under the Michigan system, a perfect SAT score is worth 12 points. Being black, hispanic or a native american is worth 20 points. Seems absurd to me.

[MMMMMM]

I recalled that the chart was very lopsided but I didn't recall it as being that lopsided;-) That's idiotic IMO. And never mind that an Asian from an impoverished country gets no points for their disadvantages. And what about Arabs from impoverished countries? Are Hispanics tremendously more disadvantaged in our society than are Arabs (I'll bet not at all)? Sorry folks but this appears to me to be politically correct yet crackpot thinking. It simply doesn't make sense.

[andyfox]

Insert "probably" between "Gore" and "wins." Gore was narrowing the gap as the recounting was proceeding.

[andyfox]

A zillion to one that Thomas votes with Scalia.

[andyfox]

"I think they will uphold the Constitution"

C'mon now. They'll look to cloak the way they vote with constitutional garments. And I mean those who vote either way. You think if the situation had been reversed in Florida they would have voted as they did? The justices that voted in the Dred Scott cased claimed they were upholding the constitution, and in Roe v. Wade. Upholding the constitution my ass.

[andyfox]

BTW, if race-based discrimination is unconstitutional, couldn't one argue that a system that results in little or no representation by blacks is unconstitutional, since it is prima facie evidence of discrimination?

[B-Man]

I'm not suggesting they've never made a bad decision--Dred Scott was bad, and Roe v. Wade was a stretch, at best, regardless of feelings about abortion... But you are picking out two or three out of thousands of decisions.

I think the Gore case was decided on political grounds, which was wrong and hurts the Court's integrity. But I think they usually get it right.

I also think race-discrimination is unconsitutional, regardless of which race is being discriminated against. The 14th Amendment doesn't apply only to blacks or hispanics, it applies to everyone.

[andyfox]

"The Florida Supreme court had a majority of Democrats serving so let's not forget that fact."

-Absolutely. I said, "I have no doubt a Court with a Dem majority would have done the same thing. (That's what happened in Florida.)"

"To a large extent the Democrats did get their recount under some very questionable conditions regarding fairness and legality where Democrats were in charge of determining whether or not a ballot that was suspect (indented hole but not punched through, hanging chad etc.) was legitimate."

-I agree. That's why I said had the recount continued, Gore would have "won", with won is quotation marks. B-Man asked how I could be so sure, and I responded to him that I should have said Gore "probably" would have "won." It seemed to me the Dems had the upper hand in having the recount go the way they preferred.

There's no question some people voted for Buchannan by mistake. I remember seeing the ballots in question, and basic reading skills should have been enough to figure out who you were voting for, but there you go.

My point is that the Florida Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court didn't "decide" the issue of recounts, they decided who they wanted to be elected and then constitutionalized their preferences. The same will happen with the affirmative action case.

My favorite comment about electioneering is from Joe McGinnis's (sp?) book The Selling of the President. It was about the 1968 Nixon-Humphrey campaign. McGinnis says he went to sleep hearing it all would come down to Illinois. Upon awaking and hearing that Nixon had won, he says he guessed the Democrats didn't have the heart to steal an election from the same man twice.

[B-Man]

BTW, if race-based discrimination is unconstitutional, couldn't one argue that a system that results in little or no representation by blacks is unconstitutional, since it is prima facie evidence of discrimination?

You can argue anything you want, but I certainly don't think you would prevail. How is it unconstitutional to base admission on test scores, grades, exracurricular activities, etc.? None of that is based on race.

I am in favor of AA if it is based on economic grounds (i.e. give a help to people from poor backgrounds/bad school systems), but not on the grounds of race. That's immoral and illegal.

[andyfox]

Note that Sowell says, "When a minority student is admitted into a college without meeting the standards. . ."

No one is admitted without meeting the standards.

[B-Man]

Insert "probably" between "Gore" and "wins." Gore was narrowing the gap as the recounting was proceeding.

He was still a longshot at best. "probably" is a leap

[andyfox]

See Tom Haley's posts below. My recollection is the same as his, that is, that the Dems had the upper hand, by hook or by crook.

[MMMMMM]

It [i[might be[/i] primae faciae evidence of discrimination or it might not. Careful too in arguing that blacks receive "little or no representation"--I doubt this is true today.

The Constitution doesn't mandate diversity. It's goal is to protect individual rights, and provide for the common defense. I say protect our individual rights and let the "diversity chips" fall where they may.

I think Booker T. Washington got it largely right, long before Affirmative Action ever existed: "Character, not circumstances, make the man." The challenges this individual overcame, through sheer hard work, study and persistence, puts today's whiners and couch potatoes to shame (and also puts me to shame, by the way).

Why should Hispanics but not Arabs get points on admission?

How can an admissions system which assigns points for race not be racist?

I think some people are too intent on redressing past wrongs. A better apoproach, IMO, is to protect our individual rights and liberties so as to keep future infringements of our rights to a minimum. Equal opportunity can be protected and advanced in no better way.

[brad]

'No one is admitted without meeting the standards. '

in a world with unlimited resources you have a good argument, but when a nonminority with a 3.5 gpa and 1200 sat doesnt get in but a minority with a 3.0 gpa and a 1000 sat does get in then your argument fails.

my point is, lets educate these people in crummy inner city schools so when they graduate they can get a 1200 sat. that way society could benefit.

but its all a bunch of crap anyway. soon if youre parents dont have a high enough 'clearance' under homeland security (everyone is gonna have some level (1-4?) of clearance) then hey no college for you, so sorry.

[brad]

'I think some people are too intent on redressing past wrongs. A better apoproach, IMO, is to protect our individual rights and liberties so as to keep future infringements of our rights to a minimum. Equal opportunity can be protected and advanced in no better way.'

well u know in the private sector u can sue for say sexual harassment or whatever.

notice in college admissions its the state playing favorites and doling out taxpayer money to their special groups (minorities, etc.) . all part of our socialist state. since the top 1/10% are white lets screw all the evil white people, thatll show em.

[MMMMMM]

He means the academic standards--exclusive of such things as artificially assigned race points--don't you think?

[andyfox]

Character should indeed make the man, but in the real world circumstances are important too.

Suppose there were a society with orange and green people (brad is god). 50% orange and 50% green. Yet only 5% of its college graudates were orange, orange people made less money than green people, had higher unemployment rates, higher infant mortality rates, etc. Might it not be reasonable to conclude that it would be in the interest of society to try to help the greens (an unfortunate term, I know) do better? Might it not be reasonable to conclude that racism against greens was playing a part in this situation, especially if there were a long history of racism against greens in the country?

Equality of opportunity is an empty phrase without progress towards equality of results. How can an admission system which results in greens being kept out not be racist?

I don't think a kid who wants to get into the University of Michigan is a whiner or a couch potato. Racism is by no means the only reason for the greens' problems, but it is certainly one reason.

[andyfox]

Affirmative action doesn't screw all the evil white people, only a few of them.

[MMMMMM]

"...but when a nonminority with a 3.5 gpa and 1200 sat doesnt get in but a minority with a 3.0 gpa and a 1000 sat does get in..."

At U. Mich. I'll bet the spread is a lot greater than that.

I've heard of students under Affirmative Action getting into Harvard with SAT scores in the 400's--I mean c'mon.

[andyfox]

If the minimum acceptable GPA is 3.0 and a person with a 3.0 gets in at the expense of someone with a 3.5, we can argue whether or not the other factors that got the 3.0 person in are valid, but we cannot argue that someone who is unqualified got in.

[andyfox]

Yes, I think that's what he means, and I think he's wrong. No one gets in without meeting the academic standards. Some who would be at the bottom of the qualified list get in over some who would be higher up on the list were not points awarded for minority status.

There's no question, BTW, from what I remember reading about the U. of Mich. case, that the result is a de facto quota system. That is, the system is designed so that they get a certain percentage of black students, and, in fact, has resulted in a pretty consistent percentage from year to year. Again, I'm with Colin Powell on this one: I don't see more of a greater overall good than evil here. Note, too, that the Bush administration, despite opposing the particulars of the U. of Mich. plan, claims not to believe in the letting the diversity chips fall where they may. They said they believe that diversity is in the best interests of society and should be achieved in ways that are not quota-ized. How this would be done is a mystery to me though.

The theory behind aiding blacks and Hispanics, and not Arabs, is that we have a large black population and a large Hispanic population, and a history of bad treatment of those minorities in particular.

[MMMMMM]

"Character should indeed make the man, but in the real world circumstances are important too."

Agreed, that's why I said Booker T. Washington got it "largely" right.

"Suppose there were a society with orange and green people (brad is god). 50% orange and 50% green. Yet only 5% of its college graudates were orange, orange people made less money than green people, had higher unemployment rates, higher infant mortality rates, etc. Might it not be reasonable to conclude that it would be in the interest of society to try to help the greens (an unfortunate term, I know) do better? Might it not be reasonable to conclude that racism against greens was playing a part in this situation, especially if there were a long history of racism against greens in the country?"

Could be, but I would stop short of endorsing legal discrimination against Oranges as a means to achieve this end.

"Equality of opportunity is an empty phrase without progress towards equality of results. How can an admission system which results in greens being kept out not be racist?"

If they don't meet the academic standards, they don't meet them. That's not racist, it's "academic"--heh;-couldn't resist;-) And it doesn't[ result in minorities being kept out--see Sowell's article--it just results in unqualified students being kept out of the best schools--there are plenty of decent schools these students can still get into--and more minority students are getting into schools now in the two states mentioned by Sowell, after the unfair race-based Affirmative Action influences were ended.

"I don't think a kid who wants to get into the University of Michigan is a whiner or a couch potato. Racism is by no means the only reason for the greens' problems, but it is certainly one reason."

I wasn't intending to call genuinely aspiring students couch potatoes.

[brad]

well the government is to blame (and parents) because they are failing in their duty to educate (that segment) of the children.

real affirmative action-

1) any scholastic infrastructure shortcomings get emergency nothavetoberepaid aid from feds to immediately fix problems.

2) any school deemed a minority school (k-12) gets special treatment. such as teachers there getting a waiver on federal income taxes as an incentive to work there. perhaps even a special supplemental federal paycheck. idea is to flood schools with teachers. if discipline is a problem same for school police. we're talking whatever it takes.

2a) perhaps an incentive program where if a student graduates from one of the schools goes to college to become teacher and comes back to teach then gets a bonus or paycheck premium. idea is to help form local education-ish community.

3) any such deemed minority school may not let a student move on to next grade until basic skill sets appropriate for that age are met. - to fix the problem we flood the schools with teachers (see #2). perhaps problem students whose parents are unresponsive are subjected to scrutiny to determine whether they are fit parents. note that homeschooling is always an option and this applies only to public school students not homeschoolers.

3a) students with learning difficulties and discipline problems are seperated from general student body and have to attend seperate facilities. feds give money for this too as local communities have none. (and program is designed to help america as a whole)

4) in such specially designated schools provide free breakfast and lunch to all students.

the main point here: its societys duty to take care of children. (which is why k-12 is more or less mandatory or customary)

thats where you take care of the problem.

after that everybodies on their own.

if theres discrimination handle it in the courts either class action lawsuits or case by case.

thats it.

(note that mass illegal immigration is a seperate issue )

[MMMMMM]

All in all it strikes me as an extraoriniarily clumsy, overly broad, and unconstitutional way to attempt to redress some inequalities.

Really, basing it on economic status would make far more sense IMO (if any such attempts are to be made, that is). If blacks and Hispanics are in the lower incomes on average, then these groups would enjoy a greater benefit than non-minorities anyway in an economic-status based Affirmative Action rather than a race-based Affirmative Action.

[brad]

never mind i see theyve come up with a better idea.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/01/education/01LAYO.html

Mass Layoffs Threatened for Teachers in California
By DEAN E. MURPHY

LAMEDA, Calif., March 31 — The entire teaching staff, and some administrators, have received pink slips for the next academic year from the Alameda school district, which serves this island city of 75,000 across the bay from San Francisco.
------------------------------------------------------

[adios]

Thanks for the link. Doesn't appear to be much new here but I've only had time to give it a cursory glance. I would really be interested in what folks like these had to say about affirmative action as I believe they would provided the best perspective:

[list] Franklin Raines (long time CEO of Fannie Mae) Carleton Fiorina (CEO of HPQ) Margaret Whitman (CEO of EBAY) E. Stanley O'Neal (CEO of Merril Lynch) Colin Powell (I believe has made statements that were pro affirmative action)

[andyfox]

I'd fear having you in any other position of responsibility, but you should be made Secretary of Education immediately. You'd probably have to tone down your anti-Achcroft remarks, though.

Remarkable post, brad.

[andyfox]

Here's a link on Powell:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/19/powell.race/

[Jimbo]

Andy a group of news organizations completed the recount and it is noteworth that Gore would have lost anyway. This was publicized wuite a bit at the time. I will search for a link but am surprised you did not mention this occurance.

Here is the best link I could find and even it is unclear:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemId=12322

[Jimbo]

I just ran across a survey where American voters were asked who really won the 2000 Presidential election.

The results:

Bush 31%
Gore 69%

From a cursory examination it appears we are able to conclude that 69% of the surveyd voters need to get out more.

[AmericanAirlines]

A system that results in little or no representation of any given racial group can be 100% fair.

Nothing says that blacks, whites, or any other group have the same distribution of talents. Asians usually have the highest SAT scores for example.

There was a big hallaballoo about how blacks are under represented in NFL coaching because the general populace is 12% black but only 4% of the coaches were black.

And yet! 51% of the NFL players are black... no one seemed to complain that *whites* were under represented in all those multi-million dollar jobs.

Perhaps Blacks are better players and whites better strategists?

Face it, America is becoming africanized. Can't say where it's coming from, but it's clear if you just watch TV for any length of time. Always blacks in commercials aren't there. Way out of proportion to 12%. (As an aside, I never see many blacks on spanish speaking channels.) Same for other Hollywood things like MTV2. Seems Rap Music is the thing these days.

The africans want to blame whites for everything...
yet over in africa, where they are the majority, it sux totally... most disease ridden poorest place on the planet, and they have it all to themselves.

But... Oprah is a billionaire. So clearly it's possible for a black women no less, to get to the top.

In a true meritocracy, racial percentages would be meaningless other than how the represent the distribution of particular merits within a racial group.

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

But what if you go to the continent where the Greens are the majority and it's a complete mess too?

Perhaps Greens are not just Oranges with a different colored exterior?

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

We could argue that the overall set if standards is unfair though.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Brad,
Some of these ideas are good... But none of them should start with "any school deemed a minority school".

They should start with objective performance standards not being met... followed by a solution... irrespective of minority status.

Equal in the eyes of the law, plain, simple, the same for everyone.

Sincerely,
AA

[brad]

good point.

btw funny story (kind of) at a local hamburger place they had flyers to contact police if u had information about a crime. seems 4 black guys beat up a korean (it said korean).

then it said please call police with any information about this 'hate crime'.

of course i immediately wondered if blacks beat up whites a hate crime? probably not.

if 4 white guys beat up a korean? maybe but still i dont think so.

seemed like the factor to leading to hate crime was the presence of the black men. but they were the criminals not the victim. heh

also it was a mexican food place. anyway ...

[andyfox]

It's pretty clear to me that is the different color exterior that is one major factor, in the disparity between the two.

[andyfox]

A system that results in little or no representation of any given racial group is most likely not fair.

Black and whites may indeed not have the same distribution of talents. But it's clear blacks are behind the curve in some areas because of circumstances beyond their control in this country.

There indeed may be more blacks who are better football players. That being the case, one would think there would be more blacks that are better coaches, since they have played and understand the game. It appears you think black don't have the "necessities," as Al Campanis put it, to coach.

As for the africanization of America, give me a break. TV is about ratings. If the show is not cutting it, it's a goner, black, white or green. If by africanization you mean there are more African-Americans on TV than there were when I was a kid, when there were exactly zero, you're correct.

Gee, I can't figure out for the life of me why some blacks blame whites for problems. BTW, africans is not the correct term for people living in the United States. And no doubt whites were/are not responsible for problems in Africa.

Yes, Oprah is a billionaire. So is Paul McCartney. Yes, anyone can do it, no doubt.

A true meritocracy is a myth.

[andyfox]

Yes, I remember that. Again, keep in mind is said "won", not won.

[Parmenides]

If you were being fair, then you would post all the criteria. For instance,how many admitted are children of alumni? How high are alumni children sat scores?

This thread permits white racists to vent.
At least you aren't using slurs.

[AmericanAirlines]

Yes, It would be interesting to see if black on white crime is classified as hate crime, or whether it's like everthing else... OK to say "white trash" but not "minority trash"... or OK to have a Black, Jewish, whatever Business League... but not "caucasian" Business league.

Of course now someone will say, "But whites don't need to stick together...blah blah blah". What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Andy,
Well, my point is more along the lines of, "Can race be used as an indicator or other inherent traits?"

In a purely scientific or genetic sense probably so.

And if it's OK to let Greens in under lesser standards... legitimizing that Greens are different... then why can't that be used to make other decisions... like say pulling over more Greens on the road while they are driving?

Point is, I race can be used to decide handouts, then it can be used to determine other things where ever a race related trait is found to exist.

So either we treat everyone the same, or we have to permit race based discrimination on all valid observations based on race. I don't see any middle ground.

Sincerely,
AA

[andyfox]

Of course there can be a middle ground. The Michigan standards are exactly a middle ground. Race is used as a factor to encourage diversity.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Parmenides,
You act as if there are no racists except white racists.

Go look up "Rastafarian". Interesting set of beliefs these folks have. It also causes me to laugh any time I see some white person with Dread locks/Rasti Braids!

And geez, aren't Jewish folk pretty racist too? Even though they decry racism... seems there's always a "Jewish something or another Leauge". Form an organization with the word "White" in the same place in the title and "you're a racist". But not any other race!

Jewish folks I know also say they "sympathize with blacks because Jews were slaves in Egypt... like blacks were in America"... They never seem to realize that Africa *taught* the world slavery... where do you think Egypt is? In Africa, Duh!

And of course, for some reason I'm seeing more "Black Guy on White Girl" scenes on TV... Hmm... if you get everyone to accept blacks... maybe a WWII Holocaust won't happen to the Jews again? Seems like a plausible sub-plot. Or perhaps if they convince white women to have mulatto babies, by making blacks glamorous "stars" and everyone becomes a mixed race, the caucasions will be "exterminated" through genetics rather than by ovens?

Personally, I'm tired of having these groups shove thier "minority-ness" and culture up my nose at all times.

Geez, should I sue Italy for the fact that 1000 years ago England was occupied by Romans and English white folks were slaves.

Geez, where does it end? Hmm... I think Rome owes me some gold.

:-)

I'll say it again. "Equal in the eyes of the law"...no more no less. No priviledges for anyone.

Sincerely,
AA

[brad]

'Yes, It would be interesting to see if black on white crime is classified as hate crime, '

from numerous articles ive read im fairly sure that black on white crime is definitely not treated as hate crime.

also im pretty sure your numbers were off regarding black crime as a % of population. the numbers ive read have it as very much higher.

also in college the theory taught in one of those wacko classes is that only the oppressed can be victim of hate crime, so white on black is hate crime, but black on white is not only just a regular crime, but (the crime) may even be somehow mitigated on the face of it. seriously theres college professors teaching that.

[brad]

you forgot mecha and la razza ('the race').

of course all these groups are funded by whitey banker so what does that tell you.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Andy,
What I mean by "african" I suppose in "negro". What is the correct non-derogatory term for africans in American then?

By the "africanization of America" I mean that percentage of blacks is increasing. There are at least 10 Black Majority cities I can think of. D.C. being one of them.

Take a look at this document and perhaps you'll see what I mean.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-5.pdf

Another component of "africanization" is the proliferation of ghetto based styles like baggy clothes, rap music, etc. The culture of America is getting africanized.

Then there's the more and more prevalent cases of black guy on white girl scenes in the media. Sorry, but since the AIDS rate, crime rate, and out of wedlock birth rate is so much higher among african-americans, I'd rather any of my daughters didn't roll the reproductive dice against those odds. Why take the risk?

Geez, then there "African History Month", Kwanza, blah blah blah.

It's OK to be black for christ sake... no one can help what they're born as... two other horny people made all of us.

But, behavior can be selected to some extent. And if it can't... For instance, if the crime rate amoung blacks is inherent, well then the racists are correct in some of thier views.

I know this though. I can't go anywhere, and I'm in a roughly 2% black regions, and not have blacks intersecting with my life somewhere. Whether I want to or not. I mean geez, suppose I just flat out don't want folks who grab thier crotches handling my groceries?

So I say live an let live. Everyone, whether I'd like them in my living room or not deserves a good life.

But don't force their presence on me by policy either. Freedom to choose for one's self should be the policy.

For christ sake, there's whites and people of all races any of us probably don't want in our space. I suppose given my stance, there's plenty of folks that would say that about me.

So I say freedom of choice, even the choice not to associate.

So anyway, to sum it all up. I'd fight for blacks or any citizen to have equal treatment by the law. But I won't fight for giving preferential treatment based on race, which Affirmative Action represents to me.

Sincerely,
AA

[brad]

the interesting thing im seeing here in arizona is that hispanics (mexicans, whatever) are very anti white.

about a year ago i went out with a girl (she was half mexican half white) we went to pick up her cousin (all mexican).

her cousin was at a friends house where everybody there was mexican.

so my 'date' asks me to wait in the car while she goes in to get her and kinda apologizes we dont talk about it you know but it was obvious that since i was white (im pretty much very very white, act white, etc.) it just wouldnt have been a good idea for me to go in.

as far as TV almost every single thing on TV is mind control to some extent.

[andyfox]

Haven't time right now to answer all the racist crap in this post. Can't even tell if you're serious or not. Please tell me if you are, and if you are, I'll give you one response sometime this weekend and then I'm through with it.

[John Cole]

"about a year ago i went out with a girl"

brad, you might want to try this on, at least, a semi-annual basis. Escaping the cellar will be good for you. Hope you left the ray-deflecting helmet at home. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

John

[AmericanAirlines]

Any middle ground is flawed.

Either race *is* or *is not* a determinant.

If it *is* a determinant then racial profiling by law enforcement is every bit as valid as Michigan's standards.

If race *is not* a determinant, neither stance is acceptable.

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Yes, I've run into that before having spent most of my life in South Florida (and finding latin women often attractive... gotta love brunettes...and blondes...and oh yeah... redheads! Anyway, despite the patina of Catholicism, latin women really do know how to dress, as do Asian women. Seems the gals in those two groups aren't has hung up by the idea that you find them sexy. However, I could be stereo typing. But watch any spanish TV channel and you'll see what I mean.)

So, it's safe to say whites aren't the only racists. Some asian father's would prefer thier daughters don't date whites as well. Which is fair, after all, they could argue that on average, whites don't have as high an IQ as asians, and the SAT scores would bear it out.

But Hispanic is a bit of a problem from a descriptive standpoint. The census provides categories like "White Hispanic", "Black Hispanic" to match each and every non-Hispanic group. Almost as though speaking spanish=hispanic.

Or perhaps it relates back to the times when England and Portugal divided the globe. You were on one side or the other. So then the come over here and get involved with the native women. Guess that would lead to white-amerindian vrs. hispanic-amerindian etc.

So knowing which hispanic subgroup you mean when you say "all mexican" is difficult.

But, if they were say, Hispanic-Amerindian, and you are say English-White... well there's a lot of antagonistic history there, as well as a language barrier. So I don't hold it against them. Just as long as it's ok for me to draw lines the same way.

You see I feel, there are folks who want to mix it up, and those who don't. And both have a right to live thier own way.

So I'm against any legislation that force the "don't wannas" to have to mix it up if they don't want to. And if folks do want to mix it up fine. Just don't force it on the "don't wannas".

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Andy,
I'm serious that I don't want to be forced by legislation to have to rub elbows with anyone I don't want to for any reason whatsoever.

I'm also serious that I believe the USA is becoming africanized by the same process that other african species do it. The move in and edge out other species that fill the same niche. "Killer Bees" (africanized bees) being the most obvious example. That'd be the equivelent, "Oh there goes the neighborhood" and folks move out as africans move in. They'll be able to take over without firing a shot. Just what the commies wanted! Like it or not, africanization = lower property values. Doesn't that about sum it up?

Tell ya what... remember those riots in Miami over the 200 Haitian boat people? Let's resettle them into *your* neighborhood. Then *you* can suffer the effects.

However, I'm also serious that african, or any race is something you're born into and no matter what you deserve equal treatment under the law and a good life.

I'm also against BS like "The Clan","Black Panthers", "Neo-Nazis" etc. Any extremist group that would push its views violently.

I believe no one has an inherent right to force anything on anyone. Period.

So yes, I stand by my observations, and my philosophy of an individual's right to choose on whatever grounds.

So I'm done with it too.

Sincerely,
AA

[Parmenides]

It's rather clear that you are white. It is also evident that you don't like Africans.

[AmericanAirlines]

Yes, I'm white.

For what it's worth, when I was younger, since I'm into music I had africans over to the house to play music and went to thier places to play as well. Worked beside them in a transistor factory as well.

But no, I don't like african culture being pushed at me by things like Affirmative Action, Hollywood, etc.

As I've gotten older I've seen and experienced more.

I don't care for "ebonics", "rap", ghetto garb and FUBU clothes, and the other charactaristics of african culture. But then that's clearly an issue of taste.

I don't care for the fact that they've broken into my home, vandalized and stolen my property. Stealing my property is stealing the amount of my life I had to exchange to get that property.

As an objective observation, the africans have just about a whole continent to themselves over there and look at it. Disease, over population, local wars, etc. etc. And this is *my* fault? I should want to give money to Africa because Bono(!) says so. Come on. Let's solve poverty right here first.

What conclusion other conclusion can you draw? I mean that 100% objectively, not cynically. Can no one else see these thing?

It's as though you are asking me to not be discerning about what is or is not good for me? I'd avoid whites with the same behaiviors we are discussing here.

And I'm sure that plenty of blacks are fed up with white culture as well. Particularly african-americans because of the history or race relations in the US. But then I've heard africans from other countries say they don't like african-*americans* either. Go figure?

But I don't wish blacks any harm. I just don't want to the USA to become like the african continent. I hope the all achieve there dreams, have great lives et. al. I wish that for all non-nasty folks.

Like I've said elsewhere in this thread, I'm basically against anyone that wants to force things on people. That's all.

So the bottom line is, Affirmative Action forces african culture on me in the work place. So I reject it.

Sincerely,
AA

[andyfox]

"It's OK to be black for christ sake... no one can help what they're born as."

-Glad you cleared that up for us.

"I can't go anywhere, and I'm in a roughly 2% black regions, and not have blacks intersecting with my life somewhere. Whether I want to or not. I mean geez, suppose I just flat out don't want folks who grab thier crotches handling my groceries?"

-You just happen to know the percentage of blacks who live in your area?

"But don't force their presence on me by policy"

-You're right. Give 'em back separate water fountains. And wash rooms. Where they can grab their crotches without intersecting with your life.

I hope American Airlines goes bankrupt.

[nicky g]

Well said.

[John Cole]

Perhaps some people need things forced upon them.

[brad]

well u know even if i dated a black girl whos brother was in the black panthers i could still be civil.

i mean reverse it (im a black guy with a white girl and she says stay in the car there could be trouble if you come in (which will take approximately 2 minutes) )). i cant see that happening. unless it was a group of federal officers or something.

[brad]

well you know a lot of people may think your being weird but i bet look at south africa.

hopefully though the blacks there really are uncivilized and american blacks are just lower class right now thats why so much trouble they have and that they have basic civilization.

[andyfox]

We tried equal in the eyes of the law, but people like you didn't want africans forced on them by having to sit next to blacks in restaurants or theaters or have them as neighbors.

[andyfox]

Hate crimes most certainly can be black on white. The laws do not say they're only white on black.

It's a myth that blacks commit a disproportionate proportion of crimes relative to their population percentage. Violents crimes, yes. All crimes, no. More whites are in a position to commit crime with a pen or a computer.

[brad]

'It's a myth that blacks commit a disproportionate proportion of crimes relative to their population percentage. Violents crimes, yes. All crimes, no. More whites are in a position to commit crime with a pen or a computer. '

of course thats true. violent crime is more scary tho.

but white collar, fraud, etc, i forget like 10 times more costly according to newspaper

but

ill bet its really 100 times

[Parmenides]

Your views are valid as you are a citizen. My views can differ, as I am also a citizen. We can agree to disagree.
That's adult. You don't sound like a hard core racist. Many Blacks have prejudices, too.

The difference between prejudice and discrimination is the key to the law and race relations.

[AmericanAirlines]

Look AndyFox,
I'm not a racist per se.

I'm Anti-AIDS.
I'm Anti-Violent Crime
I'm Anti-irresponsible sex
I'm Anti-Crack, and Meth Labs
I'm Anti-Uneducated Ghetto culture

I can't help that statistically those things are more prevalent in the black community. But as stated before, I avoid whites, and anyone else, with the same behaviors. But my odds are worse with africans on these things.

As I said, no one can help what thier born. BUT... they CAN elect thier BEHAVIORS... if they can't... that is, if these behaviors are genetic...then all the more reason to consider race, both in admissions, and law enforcement, wouldn't you say.

Now that having been said, I used to be liberal on this issue until...

My house has been broken into by them, and Barry Grunow, the teacher that got shot in Lake Worth by that black kid, Daniel Brazil, was a classmate of mine, and my vehicles have been hit by them, and Riviera Beach back in my home town has turned to sh*t by them. Their very presence runs down property values. Ever wonder why that is?

So I say Repatriation is the answer. Even Abe Lincoln said that. But seriously though. I see no value in the intersection. And the black back then, when offered repatriation knew there were better off here than among thier own kind over in africa. They chose to stay. And you don't see any of them running back to Africa now do you?

Yes I do know the percentage of blacks in my area. The US Census site will let you drill down to the Census track by race.

You hope I go broke. Fine. Your Sooo politically correct. I hope I live to see the day when you wake up and realize what you are arguing *for*. I wouldn't wish this on anybody... but perhaps you need to have a daughter... and she gets hooked on crack because Hollywood makes it look "chic"... then she runs out of money and homie "takes it out in trade" with a little sodomy to get back at whitey through is precious little girl...

How can you be a poker player and miss these reads?

Now as far as affirmative action goes. Tell me again how say Colin Powell, or Oprahs kids need points for being "under-priviledged because they're black"???

Sorry dude, but the trend in racism today is *Anti-WHITE* Are you unaware there's a BLACK CAUCUS on capital hill.

Oh... but if there was a WHITE CAUCUS...*THAT* would be racist. Or maybe an NAAWP or White Entertainment Television would be racist too.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Any group except whites are allowed to hang together, right.

When it's OK for whites to be as racist as everyone else, then I'll change my mind. Maybe. I still don't want crotch rot in my stuff! Whether it's black or white... Keep Eminem the hell away from me!!! Argh!!! :-)

Eminem, by the way, is a perfect example of the "Africanization of America". An obviously white, nearly aryan type... talking in ebonics. He does a pretty crappy job of it to. Yet he's selling millions worth. You're damn straight america is becoming africanized via the media. (And for what it's worth... when Dr. Dre heard his demo CD he didn't realize Eminem was *white*. Had, I'd bet "Slim Shady" would've never got the break. Else why would have Dr. Dre brought that fact up?)



You are being Politically Correct, but irrational. You refuse to see the facts that are available right here on the web. I already provided you with the link to the Census site. Now go do your homework.

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. Jewish folk I know, who are famous for their Post Holocaust anti-racism "speiel" call Palistinians "Camel Jockeys" and "Sand N*iggers"... so don't tell me us European-Americans are the source of all racial tension.

But you see, these particular Jews are buddies, so they don't hold back around me.

You are one naive individual on these issues.

You weren't one of those dope smokin flower power types were you? (Just kiddin')

Look, slavery has rightfully been put down, and Civil Rights has occurred... Great. Now let's get the anti-white bias out of things.

P.P.S You know... we have a complete crisis in leadership when middle class kids would rather dress like Dr. Dre. than the President.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi AndyFox,
I agree with you here. White collar crime seems to be more prevalent in the white community.

But personally, can you not see how rape, robbery, and homicide are significantly more animalistic and base crimes than embezzlement and fraud?

Heck, us poker players are trying to execute fraud every time we bluff!

:-)

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. Seriously... all flaming aside... What do YOU say the solution is?

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Brad,
To be honest, I don't know much of the history of South Africa. But my intuitions say that if the Brits went over there and enslaved the black populace there, that they should not have.

Though I don't want african culture and african things forces on my via policy, I don not believe that enslaving africans and exploiting them is correct either.

Live and let live you know. However, quotas, Affirmative Action, etc. seem to be designed to try force africans into things. That's not right either.

My basic philosophy is that no one should be able to f*ck with anyone else.

Anyway, by current standards I *am* weird. But I believe my observations are correct.

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. A co-worker of mine has a girlfriend from South Africa. She says some of the natives over there believe that if they have sex with a TWO YEAR OLD... they WON'T GET AIDS!!!!

What a disgusting bunch of pigs.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi AndyFox,
"Separate but Equal" never struck me as fair either.

When it comes to business I feel this way. If it's privately owned, the gov't shouldn't force me to employ or do business with anyone I don't want to, for any reason. Same as "at will employement" ("can be terminated for any reason or no reason").

When it's a public corp. or a Gov't business I feel the opposite. Then it must represent the general populace.

I.E. When it's "mine" I should be able to do whatever I want with it.

When it comes to neighborhoods... I feel that if a bunch of Jewish folks don't want aryans in thier nieghborhood, or whatever two groups it involves, so be it. If a group of people want to get the money together to build a community to thier liking and it includes race, so what?

Geez, I can't live on the Beach Front back in my home town of the Palm Beaches.... Why???? Because I'm Working Class... So effectively, the Rooesevelts and thier other friends from "good" families have taken over my home town with thier money... I.E. I'm not "green" enough. Oh well... tough sh*t for me. No one cares that I was born there and can't afford to live thier, right?

Why don't YOU tell ME why property values decline when an area becomes black? Umm... could it be that society as a whole doesn't value africanization, except of course in the media, where it seems to sell (e.g. Rap / Hip-Hop).

But then listening to a CD, and rubbing elbows are two different levels of separation, aren't they?

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Parmenides,
Thanks for being adult. Truth is, I'm not a hardcore racist. Or anything else for that matter.

I'm just simply highly uncomfortable with some of the traits of africans and thier culture and want the freedom to stay away from it without having to leave my place of work, place of living, and would prefer not to have the things I purchase contain materials from the African continent or Carribean. I mean, when I see pictures of the squalor of Africa, I have to wonder, for example, "Do I really want to pay $2000 for a Gibson Les Paul that has African Mahogany in it?" Geez, every time I play it, I'd be asking myself what's really *in* it? Same for clothes made in Dominican Rebublic and Haiti as well... "What's really woven into this cloth?". Unfortunately I used to do a lot of microscopic semiconductor work. So I'm used to asking... "What contaminants at the molecular level are in this here silicon?" So when I say, "I want no contact... I mean exactly zero contact on any level.

I find that the closer you look at anything the worse it gets. For example, everything we call food... used to be alive. When I get to heaven or hell, assuming they exist, I'll be asking that supposed all loving god why that is... and why little girls are being circumsized without brutally in islamic countries, etc. I see little evidence of an all-loving anything out there. Let alone god.

So anyway, ask yourself how many guys have used the chips at the Mirage without washing thier hands in that jumbo men's room right there at the poker room... and so like how long have those chips been circulating? So like there you go... grab you chips... now grab you sandwich... Whose d*ck you gettin a mouthful of? You get the idea.

Work in a casino long enough and you'll see all kind of crud in everything you look at.

Might sound absurd... until you consider this latest thing... SARS.

So call me a separatist if you want. That might be the most valid handle.

But then I also believe America as a whole should be considering being separatist. For example, start engineering alternative energy source and say "to hell with the middle east".

I believe self sufficiency is the real key.

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Andy,
Twice I've gone broke in my adult life sticking to my convictions rather than giving in.

It's nothing new to me.

Matter of fact I've been through many of the things people fear in life.

1. Severe physical injury.
2. Going broke.
3. Lost love.
4. Loss of status.
5. Having to uproot and move across country.

So... you get yer wish.

:-)

But it has made me a hell of a lot more likely to stick to my convictions.

Sincerely,
AA

[andyfox]

"I'm not a racist per se."

-I don't understand what you mean by per se, but you certainly are racist.

"I'm Anti-Uneducated Ghetto culture"

-An example of your racism.

"Their very presence runs down property values. Ever wonder why that is?"

-Because of people like you.

"You hope I go broke."

-I was making a sarcastic joke about American Airlines, who was considering chapter 11 the week you first posted.

"Now as far as affirmative action goes. Tell me again how say Colin Powell, or Oprahs kids need points for being "under-priviledged because they're black"???"

-Obviously Colin Powell's kids or Oprah's don't need help to get into school. But, as a group, blacks in our country have been and are specially mistreated, so I'm in favor of special treatment for them to even the playing field



"Jewish folk I know, who are famous for their Post Holocaust anti-racism "speiel" call Palistinians "Camel Jockeys" and "Sand N*iggers""

-Which famous Jewish fold use this spiel?

"... so don't tell me us European-Americans are the source of all racial tension."

-When did I say that?

"You weren't one of those dope smokin flower power types were you? (Just kiddin')"

-Yes, I was.

"Look, slavery has rightfully been put down"

-Glad to hear you approve of this.

P.P.S You know... we have a complete crisis in leadership when middle class kids would rather dress like Dr. Dre. than the President.

-I think we have a complete crisis in leadership when we have Bill Clinton and George W. Bush as successive presidents. What possible difference could it make what clothes middle class kids wear?

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Andy,
Like I said, I can't help the statistics fall where they do. Which seems to be along racial lines.

Are blacks mistreated in our schools, or are they threatening teachers?

I spent 10 years as a kid in a Philadelphia area school and got "jumped" at least once by black drug dealers. To be honest, I put a pellet pistol in my backpack when I was about 12, that's how f*cked up it was. And it had nothing to do with the teachers. This was near Huntington Valley PA. Very rich... but I lived in an area near "Crestmont" and Rosyln... Black Gang areas. So there it was... a well funded, predominantly white school, and the blacks were jumping people. Eventually they put armed gaurds in the High School... But then I'd argue the entire North-East has an agression problem... You know... "I'm Joey Bag-a-donuts and I'm after you, I'm-a-gonna-kick your ass" sort of attitude.

Where are you from? The Malibu "hood" LOL!

Honestly, you really seem to have your head in the sand or really believe you can make some pie-in-the-sky ideals happen.

I *wish* the world was the way you seem to think it is. But it isn't.

My opinions really are based on my experiences.

I got these opinions after being on your side of the fence and having go bad.

So I ask again... what's you wonderful pollyanish solution?

Sincerely
AA