weak pair got run over

[Kimpan]

40/14.2/1.2
this is ok?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP folds, CO folds, SB folds.

River: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[Nick C]

You've got a lot of opponents on the turn, but no one seems to have much. Taking a stab seems all right to me. There's a decent chance you have the best hand, and, since you're the BB, your opponents also have to contend with the possibility that you whiffed on a flop checkraise with top pair.

I suppose you could check-call the river and hope UTG will bluff A4 or 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or something, but I think bet-folding is probably better. If he suspects you're bluffing, he might call with ace high (or, say, A3 or 65s). And possibly he'll fold a better hand, but I'm not too optimistic about that.

[wackjob]

Bet the flop. Keep betting until someone shows resistance, then a call is in order. Checking the flop here is a big mistake. Thinking you are going to get a C/R in on this raggy board is not good thinking either.

[StellarWind]

.

[Kimpan]

with 5 opponents, and a low pair, is checking the flop really that bad?

[wackjob]

Why would you check 2nd pair on a ragged board when there is a good chance you have the best hand?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
with 5 opponents, and a low pair, is checking the flop really that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
You only have four opponents.

"Good" means I think you played the entire hand well. Betting the flop 5-handed is bad.

[cdxx]

checking the flop is a mistake

[Kimpan]

is betting the flop here close? or is it easy? I didn't find it easy..
This is what I thought would happen:
I bet flop, 2-3 call, the turn misses me, I then have a difficult discission to bet or not.. If I don't bet, I give the hand away..
This might sound weak, but I have to dodge alot of overs if I'm not already behind. Ofcourse I could hit my Q or 5 and the hand is pretty easy from there..
hmm..

[wackjob]

Stellar - why do you think not betting this flop is good. I respect a lot of what you post &amp; know you to be a sound player, but I really disagree with this &amp; want some sort of reasoning not to lead this flop.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Stellar - why do you think not betting this flop is good. I respect a lot of what you post &amp; know you to be a sound player, but I really disagree with this &amp; want some sort of reasoning not to lead this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


betting the flop here is bad. You have a weak, vulnerable hand against a large field, with a flush draw and lots of straight draws on the boards, and tons of overcards. I'd bet it against 2 opponents and perhaps 3 opponents depending on how they played postflop.


And your reverse implied odds are horrible.

[wackjob]

If you are afraid to bet when you think you have the best hand you shouldn't play poker. If you worry about overcards falling, don't play poker. If you are afraid 4 people are going to call your flop bet, don't play poker! If you have the best hand on the flop, you are a favorite to win and should be betting. I think you have the best hand here the majority of the time &amp; when you don't I think a flop will raise will let you know otherwise.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
checking the flop is a mistake

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is.

The flop is raggy, it's true, but it's also two-flush and somewhat coordinated. We're up against limpers, so the raggy nature of the flop may not be as beneficial for us as it appears. Also, I think the 9 is somewhat of a concern.

We have a weak made hand, that, even if best, will very frequently not hold up if we get, say, three callers. (And I think that on a board like this one, that could easily happen. There's a lot of potential for people to have overcard(s) and/or some sort of a draw.) Anyone who happens to have a flush draw should be in fine shape against us even heads-up, and it's not like we're crushing a hand like A2o either.

Add in the very real chance that we're behind, and I like checking and seeing what develops.

[Kimpan]

not betting this weak hand against 4 opponents doesn't mean I should stop playing poker, does it? please tell me I can still play... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
sorry for sarcasm

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
And your reverse implied odds are horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[wackjob]

You'd rather check this flop &amp; fold to a turn bet? I think if you check this flop and anyone bets the turn you should fold. I think this is weak-tight. Seeing what develops sounds like fishing to me. We have a made hand, yes, likely the best hand on the flop. People who are calling with overs are likely to have tainted outs. 1 bet on the flop is easy to get away from on the turn when scare cards hit or people start getting nutty with bets. It just seems to be everyone wants to fish the turn to improve or just toss the hand. I think there is more value here than that.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
You'd rather check this flop &amp; fold to a turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, on a good number of turn cards, that's what I'd do.

I'm not necessarily even seeing the turn, though. If it comes back two bets to me, I'm dumping my hand. (Having the opportunity to see the action and do this without investing anything is one advantage of checking, by the way.) If it's checked to the CO and he bets, then I might checkraise, but even that depends on what I think his bet might mean and how likely I think the checkraise is to get me heads-up. (I might just fold to a CO bet, if I don't think it's just a stab and/or if the players behind me are perfectly willing to call two cold with, say, a gutshot or if they might've checked a hand like 77 or 98s and they won't fold it to two bets.) If there's an UTG bet and a call or two, I guess I might peel, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

Anyway, the flop got checked through this time, but I don't think it will usually.

Also, I think you're overrating the value of our hand on the flop.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are afraid to bet when you think you have the best hand you shouldn't play poker. If you worry about overcards falling, don't play poker. If you are afraid 4 people are going to call your flop bet, don't play poker! If you have the best hand on the flop, you are a favorite to win and should be betting. I think you have the best hand here the majority of the time &amp; when you don't I think a flop will raise will let you know otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well you asked for it /images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you can't adjust your play for the number of opponents ... play at my table /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

If you can't adjust your play for unfavorable position ... play at my table /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

If you can't adjust your play for board texture ... play at my table /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

Seriously, with this flop a bet will almost automatically attract several calls and will quite often be raised. The nine is a very awkward top card, likely to have hit limpers but too low to discourage overcard calls. The two-flush and multiple straight draws are also annoying. Your pot equity is poor because in addition to being behind you will frequently be outdrawn or driven off your hand before you see all the cards.

When the turn comes you will almost always be afraid of it unless it actually hits you hand. You will be in the very unpleasant situation of having to make a very dangerous turn bet to prevent a free card with almost no idea what is going on.

Checking the flop allows you to see what is going on out there. It may come back two bets in which case it is good to escape unscathed. You may get to checkraise an LP bettor which is much better than betting out. If it gets bet in early position you can draw to your outs and see where you stand on the turn. An EP bet will be just as effective at clearing out the rabble as betting yourself and it avoids being raised and charged two bets to draw to a low pair.

There is a reason all of the good posters other than yourself are on the same side of this debate. It's not close.

[StellarWind]

Assuming your opponents have some life in them, why not checkraise the turn? With the top card pairing it is very likely that someone will take a swipe at this pot. Now a checkraise will represent a weak nine that checked the flop or a slowplaying set. This will very strongly protect your vulnerable hand and may even dislodge a somewhat better hand such as A5 or 77. I know I tend to drop hands like hot potatoes when something like this happens to me.

Caveat: This all assumes a suitable lineup. If you are playing against four inanimate objects you need to make a different plan. But I think against typical lively 5/10 tables it's good.

[wackjob]

I don't consider myself a "good" poster. Maybe average. I will concede to your points &amp; try this line a few times. I'm also going to search my HH to find some similar situations and see how my lead the flop play turned out.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose you could check-call the river and hope UTG will bluff A4 or 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or something, but I think bet-folding is probably better. If he suspects you're bluffing, he might call with ace high (or, say, A3 or 65s; however, we don't actually beat 65s but chop with it instead). And possibly he'll fold a better or equal hand, but I'm not too optimistic about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's too late to edit, and I'm picky enough to feel the need to fix my post.

I probably could resist the urge to do so, but I also wanted to bump the thread and see what people thought of StellarWind's turn checkraise idea.

I don't think I make plays like that enough.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Stellar - why do you think not betting this flop is good. I respect a lot of what you post &amp; know you to be a sound player, but I really disagree with this &amp; want some sort of reasoning not to lead this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a bad spot to lead the flop. If we're winning now, we probably won't be winning by the showdown. We need positon to bet this flop, since we dont have it, we need to check and see.

[smartalecc5]

[ QUOTE ]
.

[/ QUOTE ]

sweet advice - I second him

[Digs]

[ QUOTE ]
what people thought of StellarWind's turn checkraise idea.

I don't think I make plays like that enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto, I make the turn c/r there like once a week. I've had mixed results at 5/10 doing it, not enough hands to really know though.

[7ontheline]

Not that the thread needs more of this, but Stellar and Nick are right. It's not close.

[cdxx]

this could be just my style, but flop bet tells me more about the opponents and tells scares my opponents more i think.

lead the flop, lead the turn, you are representing trip nines.

if you get raised on the flop, you could fold or you could 3-bet and fold to a cap or turn open.

if you get raised on the turn, easy fold, as no card helps you.

results oriented : both scenarios are 1.5 BB, so i think you see it cheaper than 2 BB as the hand played out.

disclaimer : c/r idea may actually work better to scare.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Not that the thread needs more of this, but Stellar and Nick are right. It's not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

It probably doesn't need more of this, but I'll chime in to say that I think checking the flop and seeing what develops is superior (by a decent margin) than leading.

[stir]

As all regular readers know, you have many fine posts in the last few months on HUSH.

But this one ranks as one of the best. Clear, concise, logical, well written. Thank You.