Bottom pair + backdoor flush on the flop.

[Larimani]

Enough to call the flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em (NL$25) <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

UTG ($4.75)
MP ($43.00)
CO ($16.40)
Hero ($24.65)
SB ($16.00)
BB ($22.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $0.50</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, Hero....?

EDIT: I realise this is a pretty basic question... but I'm relatively new to NL...

[amoeba]

other things you should consider is whether underbet means monster with this villain or not ( I would hate to hit another 9 only to get run in to villain's QT) .Also will villain fold say a pair of jacks if you become aggressive on the turn. will villain go too far with single pair hands and pay me off if I do hit a 9 or a backdoor flush or maybe a 5 as my immediate odds are not there to a 5 outer with 3 outs not that great. usually I don't even count backdoor flushes especially ones this low.

with an MP3 call I find it pretty tough to call as well. I can't bluff both of them easily later on in the hand and I have to have reads that neither of them slowplay monsters.

[ajmargarine]

First off, fold preflop. Yeah, I know they are soooted, but you got nothing. As to the general question, bottom pair - 3 to a flush, you can count your flush runner runner as one out. 2 9's and 3 5's gives you a total then of 6 outs to improve, which you will almost have to do to win the hand. .50 to call, pot $2.25, odds aren't there, so fold.

[yvesaint]

Fold on the flop. Pre-flop call can go either way, depending on the table.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
..... Pre-flop call can go either way, depending on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously?? I don't play 6-max, so maybe I am off. I would think the merit of being in this hand at all is strictly because you are playing from the button. Limped pot that's surely to be 5-way means it may be difficult to get 4 checks and then a bet from hero to take the pot down (which to me is one of the prime reasons for calling here with "any 2").

Plus, UTG's extreme shortstack would be an added negative for entering this hand when you can just fold and invest $0.

[yvesaint]

I didn't notice stack sizes, but with a shortstack limping UTG, its a fold.

If there are some deep stacks on the table, depending on how they're playing, I might limp, fold, or even raise 95s.

[deadmoney98]

[/minirant]I am the only one annoyed when people talk about inside striaght draws and backdoor flush draws. These are not draws! A backdoor flush!?! That is what makes you want to continue with this hand? Please find a better reason to play, especially because with that gross starting hand you MUST win pots when you do not make the best hand.[endofminirant/]

[mudbuddha]

back door flush is 1 out, it deserves to be considered

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, fold preflop. Yeah, I know they are soooted, but you got nothing. As to the general question, bottom pair - 3 to a flush, you can count your flush runner runner as one out. 2 9's and 3 5's gives you a total then of 6 outs to improve, which you will almost have to do to win the hand. .50 to call, pot $2.25, odds aren't there, so fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot odds are not your primary consideration here, nor should they be in most NL situations. The real question for OP is: If he makes a hand, how likely are his opponents to pay him off for it to a degree that justifies his investment, and is that hand likely to end up second-best?

In this case, you're not getting immediate pot odds to justify your call. Your implied odds are not great, since this min-betting in an unraised pot isn't indicative of any kind of commitment. Anyone "slowplaying a monster" on this board probably has a set or two pair, thus making some of your outs no good, and a higher pair + backdoor flush is certainly possible. If this pot were about twice as big, or if you specifically knew either villian to be a hopeless showdown addict who routinely and substantially paid off draw-outs, then you might want to continue. As is, this isn't worth even the $.50.

And fold preflop.

[hashi92]

fold preflop
fold on the flop
even if u hit the flush its not the nuts
to many draws on the board
u wasted enough money on this hand move on

I would fold preflop and on the flop. You're basically drawing to three outs (the backdoor and 2 nines). Even if you hit two pair with the fives, there's no way to feel very good about it considering this flop. And as another poster said, the trip nines might be beat by a straight here. This is a terrible spot. Fold. It might be a bit different if you had A-5s and the flop were J-5-2 and you had a backdoor. Then, you actually would have something like 6 outs, position, and a cheap flop call. But you have to differentiate between pairs with an over card and the runner runner backdoor nut flush draw to what you had, which was garbage. And I'm not advocating necessarily calling with the A-5s situation....Just want to point on the difference.

[Larimani]

Thanks for your replies.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot odds are not your primary consideration here, nor should they be in most NL situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

They should be your First consideration in All NL drawing situations. If you have pot odds, you should often call. Of course, you have to take into consideration whether or not if you hit your hand, if it will be the best hand. You also take into consideration your position. The "fake" outs that you have is also a consideration. Meaning if a flush or straight hits on the board, are we going to be able to bluff successfully at the pot to take it.

[ QUOTE ]
The real question for OP is: If he makes a hand, how likely are his opponents to pay him off for it to a degree that justifies his investment...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is called implied odds. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[deadmoney98]

[ QUOTE ]
back door flush is 1 out, it deserves to be considered

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that a joke? Seriously, my sarcasm detector is off.

It is not 1 out, but even if it were that is rarely if ever the line between playing and folding.