QQ - too weak?

[Larimani]

Should I be fireing a second barrel? third?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em (NL$25) <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Button ($24.40)
SB ($16.50)
BB ($29.40)
UTG ($18.15)
Hero ($28.70)
CO ($25.12)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.00</font>, CO calls $1.00, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($2.35) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.00</font>, CO calls $3.00.

Turn: ($8.35) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($8.35) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: $8.35.

[GrunchCan]

Raise more PF; make it 1.5.

I'll bet the turn. Fold to a raise. Check-something the river if called on the turn. something = fold/call depending on pot odds.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise more PF; make it 1.5.

I'll bet the turn. Fold to a raise. Check-something the river if called on the turn. something = fold/call depending on pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

betting the turn is retarded.this isn't limit. no worse hands will call then check down the river. they either call then fire the river making it tougher for you because pot is inflated due to your turn bet or they raise you on the turn with a worse hand because they are sure you don't have flush and you are betting the turn because you don't know what to do.

hero's line is fine. if villain loose passive and will call with more hands then he bets with, could consider value betting river.

[Larimani]

$1 = 4xBB... isn't 6xBB a bit excessive??

[GrunchCan]

check-fold the turn to any reasonable bet?

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
check-fold the turn to any reasonable bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, now that seems really weak. I check-call, if checked through, value bet river.

[amoeba]

decide how much you are willing to lose to look him up. decide whether he is capable of bluffing the flush with a worse made hand or pure bluff.

then check and call or check and fold based on these things. but betting out is no good. you'll only fold hands you beat if he is tight passive and get it taken away if he is aggressive.

I will say that most SSNL donks misplay the turned flush here and check behind.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
$1 = 4xBB... isn't 6xBB a bit excessive??

[/ QUOTE ]

Not according to this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3083022&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1).

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$1 = 4xBB... isn't 6xBB a bit excessive??

[/ QUOTE ]

Not according to this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3083022&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's still situational. At 6-max tables 100 NL, 6xBB is way too much, but it might work at a loose, passive, full-ring 25 NL. I think rather than following one rule for every pre-flop raise, you should be looking at the players on the table to see how much you should raise.

[GrunchCan]

Why is 6x too much at a 6max table?

[Rooger]

Preflop is fine, I think 4xBB + 1 BB pr. limper works good.

Flop: Why overbet the pot? You don't want to give odds to a flush or straight draw, but a pot bet does that fine. Overbetting the pot seems too scared, and puts you in trouble, as you don't know where you stand on turn &amp; river. What would you do if he raised you to 9?
I also check the turn, keep the pot down &amp; be ready to fold to a big bet. It completes both flush &amp; straight draws (though it's unlikely your opponent has a straight with your preflop raise).

According to the player I could bet the river - with the paired board, an eventual two pair hand will be counterfeited, and against some players you could get calls from broadway jacks with a ½ pot bet.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$1 = 4xBB... isn't 6xBB a bit excessive??

[/ QUOTE ]

Not according to this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3083022&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. I might give this a try... It's true that 25NL donks seem to play "semi-decent" hands no matter if the raise is 2xBB, 4xBB or 8xBB... so I might as well charge them as much as I can.

[Rooger]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is 6x too much at a 6max table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially at 6max I don't like a standard raise of 6xBB, as you play more hands at 6max, and want to avoid too many situations with marginal hands in a big pot.
Depending on the table it can be good, but generally I think it's too much.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is 6x too much at a 6max table?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising a lot more hands.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise more PF; make it 1.5.

I'll bet the turn. Fold to a raise. Check-something the river if called on the turn. something = fold/call depending on pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

betting the turn is retarded.this isn't limit. no worse hands will call then check down the river. they either call then fire the river making it tougher for you because pot is inflated due to your turn bet or they raise you on the turn with a worse hand because they are sure you don't have flush and you are betting the turn because you don't know what to do.

hero's line is fine. if villain loose passive and will call with more hands then he bets with, could consider value betting river.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for your valuable/respected reply amoeba. What is your opinion on the 4BB vs 6BB PFR issue?

[amoeba]

I just use 4BB + 1 bb per limper.

I go 5 here. thats my standard.

I haven't tried 6bb +1 perlimper so I can't comment on that.

I think its highly table dependent and instead of a set rule, you should just bet however much to get a caller but not have it be family pot.

it just so happens that often at different limits, this number coincides with the 4bb+1 and the 6bb+1 rules.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its highly table dependent and instead of a set rule, you should just bet however much to get a caller but not have it be family pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's my goal, too. I want a HU flop. In my experience, 6x works well. 4x doesn't.

But my experience is brief.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]


That's my goal, too. I want a HU flop. In my experience, 6x works well. 4x doesn't.

But my experience is brief.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you play 6-max or full-ring? What limits? All those are factors into your pre-flop raise amounts, but it's very table-dependent. 6xBB might be standard at one table, while 4xBB works at others. I just find at 6-max 100 or 200 NL, 4xBB is usually enough to get it to 2, maybe 3-handed.

[GrunchCan]

I'm playing 25 NL, flipping between 6m and FR. Most of my hands have been at FR, but I make the same move at 6m, too.

I do adjust to changing table conditions. I don't follow set rules. (In case you don't know, my avatar is what it is becasue I'm hard on people for drinking too much kool-aid. Get it?)