$109s - KJo Hand

[Unarmed]

Ok, trying to crank the aggression up just a touch in appropriate spots.
Villain has raised twice including this one. Level 1 he opened for 50 UTG with JJ. He is a calling station and will call my push with any jack, probably good nines, TT, and all overcards. (I think)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t795)
UTG (t560)
UTG+1 (t2050)
MP1 (t1590)
MP2 (t1915)
CO (t1470)
Button (t900)
SB (t720)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t135) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Villain leads for 50 and I push.

[axeshigh]

What's wrong with raising to 200? You're not afraid that the utg minraise means a high pp, and if calling station = no aggressivity, and he pushes, then you can lay it down. He's going to have to pay off your push with worse hands a LOT of the time here to balance the times you run into a monster given the massive overbet.

[11t]

I like it, the pot is decent and you do have some redraws (running flush/straight) in case you are crushed.

[Burno]

This doesn't feel right.

I think you can make it 200ish and safely fold to a push. Given the texture of the board, the villian will be forced to play his hand more honestly on the flop. If he calls I'd push every turn (I think).


What's your intuition say about a UTG minraise at this level from the stereotypical party'er? From my experience it's often a small to medium pair or suited ace.

[freemoney]

if hes a real big calling station i like it if hes calling with AK or whatever but this board is pretty drawy which benefits you in the fact that its much more likely that you have the drawing hand then he does so i really think the only awful card on the turn is an ace, if a draw hits you are in bb and called pre and check called flop but if hes a real big calling station and def calling with flush draw and enough hands that it balances out for when he also has a better hand n the fact that ull pick up the pot alot then a push is fine.

[Unarmed]

Alright, normally I just flat call this and re-evaluate on the turn. My hand really isn't all that vulnerable; as you say, the only card I'm afraid of is the ace. I'm not worried about protecting my hand against QJ because QJ is seeing this hand through to the river no matter what I do. (though an ace would likely shut him down) Like you say (I think) the draw can actually help me if I'm the one that needs to represent it to win.

So yeah, I've normally been playing these hands slowly and picking off bluffs, encouraging weaker PPs to call another bet. I think they're both viable lines and read dependent. I pushed because he's an uber calling station. If he was LAG I'd flat call and hope he sees that as weakness on the two flush board. Then C/R the turn all-in.

To the other posters, raising off 1/2 of my effective stack OOP with a draw on the board is a really bad idea IMO, unless you're calling a push on the flop and if called, open pushing the turn no matter what the card. I'd far rather flat call and push the turn, though I'm not real fond of that line either.

[axeshigh]

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raising off 1/2 of my effective stack

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After I'd posted, I thought about that, and I wonder about whether this principle should be applied here. I think you can still fold to a push if you raise half of your 'effective stack' because what will be left of your stack if you lose the hand after going all-in will be so small that your equity will be almost nil. It would make your decisions much easier if you had 300 less chips or 500 more. I hope I'm making sense.

[citanul]

I don't get why you have a question. If your read is:

[ QUOTE ]
He is a calling station and will call my push with any jack, probably good nines, TT, and all overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

And clearly you believe he will also be calling with any hand that you are behind, and probably you believe he will call with say, QT and maybe 2 spades or something, I don't understand how there is any doubt at all that this push is correct.

I guess the only other question is do you believe there are hands that are EVEN WORSE THAN THOSE that he will call a non push raise with on the flop?

I mean if your read is your read, clearly this play is perfect. And who are we to say your read is wrong?

citanul

ps: meh.

[axeshigh]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how there is any doubt at all that this push is correct.


[/ QUOTE ]

I may be wrong here, but the read doesn't take into account the % of chance that he has some stupid hand that he will raise preflop with, bet the flop, and call a push. There may be a greater chance that he has something so bad that he can't call with (not a problem) or something that has you beat. Also, you have to take into account that you are fartehr behind AJ or KK that you are ahead of a flush draw. And since this is some kind of 'value push' and the guy sucks so bad that he's gonna call his whole stack with a wide range of hands regardless, I don't see why it would not be better to raise less so you can fold if reraised (assuming he would only reraise if he had you beat) Am I making sense here?

[Unarmed]

I think I'm just getting way too cute instead of taking the clear +EV line when its presented to me, especially early on when the fish haven't eliminated themselves yet.

[citanul]

yes, i'm taking into account the % of the time that those things are happening, i'm just not writing out a big string of numbers to do that.

the point is that against a laggy donk, they're going to come over the top of your raise a lot, or just call it a lot. and then you're in a weird spot after the flop action. you don't know where you are AND there's a bunch of your chips in the middle AND the next card could make his hand for relatively cheap. A main concern is that if he's a true donk and he decides to get out of line with a hand you beat you put yourself in a bad spot where you have ot make a very hard call, instead of just making a play that is +EV against his possible range of calling hands and folding hands. Amongst things we try to minimize is being put in really tricky spots.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm just getting way too cute instead of taking the clear +EV line when its presented to me, especially early on when the fish haven't eliminated themselves yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

During downswings we start to doubt every part of our games, especially ironically the parts of our game that we previously knew to be worth the most money to us.

In your case it seems to be that you are beginning to doubt your ability to make good reads, stick to them, and play the hand in a definite manner according to those reads.

Stop that.

citanul

[axeshigh]

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the point is that against a laggy donk,

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't calling stations usually passive? I interpreted the read as meaning the guy won't raise without a hand, and given the action so far I would put him on a strong hand if that is what the read is.

[citanul]

fine fine, try to be logical.

but even if you throw that out, there's a ton more hands here that you're ahead of than behind *that hero believes the villain will call a push with* so why would you not just get all your chips in? if villain decides to call on the flop making a bad call even for too many chips, and then hits his hand on the turn, we've gotten ourselves into a nasty spot where we've let the guy catch up for less than all his chips when we could have made him try to catch up for all of them.

citanul

Man, I feel like I should be depositing money somewhere for all this incredible information.

How would you guys play the flop if you didn't have any read on UTG? Would the way you play it differ between an $11 and a $109?

[citanul]

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Man, I feel like I should be depositing money somewhere for all this incredible information.

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my account information is readily available for all persons wanting to make donations.

citanul

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[ QUOTE ]
Man, I feel like I should be depositing money somewhere for all this incredible information.

[/ QUOTE ]

my account information is readily available for all persons wanting to make donations.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

What's considered appropriate around here?

I have immediate goals to build a $33s bankroll and buy a Dell 4-tabling monitor, but will be happy to contribute to the community as appropriate after that.

[citanul]

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Man, I feel like I should be depositing money somewhere for all this incredible information.

[/ QUOTE ]

my account information is readily available for all persons wanting to make donations.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

What's considered appropriate around here?

I have immediate goals to build a $33s bankroll and buy a Dell 4-tabling monitor, but will be happy to contribute to the community as appropriate after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can buy me a drink sometime.

citanul

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K /images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t60, 6 folds, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t135) 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players) Villain leads for 50 and I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like it. villian is betting less than 40% of the pot and you're putting his tournament life at stake if he's on a flush draw.

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you can buy me a drink sometime.

citanul

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It would be my pleasure to buy you (and any of the other generous gurus around here) MANY drinks sometime.