rethinking rebuy tourneys

[Cincy Peach]

Up until now, I have avoided rebuy tourneys like the plague, because I just didn't have the willingness to keep rebuying and trying to keep up with those who were willing too.

However, the availability of rebuys seems to make so many players play like madmen. That has to be bad for them, doesn't it? and in a tourney where all the rebuy money goes into the prize pool, their bad play has to be good for me. I am thinking of trying these again, without rebuying myself, with the idea that a bad player who is going to rebuy twice is no different than playing three bad players.

Is my thinking flawed? I am definately not willing to be one the the rebuyers . . .

[nmt09]

The problem is that it essentially doubles or triples the field you're up against making a cash less likely.

I've only every entered one re-buy for the same reasons as you, I was unwilling to throw money at a game.

[Pepsquad]

Just play a rebuy as though it's not a rebuy. In my experience, people are MUCH more willing to fling chips the first hour, looking for quick double/triple-up's. This only makes makes your typical solid "wait for big pockets and push" early game that much more effective. You have opponents much more willing to gamble.

[benkahuna]

It basically depends on the variance you're willing to tolerate. Rebuys are much more hectic early on with medium strength hands.
I think you're sort of in bad shape heading out of the rebuy period if you haven't doubled or tripled up in many cases, particularly in unlimited rebuy tournaments. I think single rebuys ought to just be called single mistake tournaments. You can call with top two pair without worrying so much that you're facing a set.

While the prize pool is increased, I think so is the average stack.

I treat rebuys as if they were more expensive buy in tournaments.

[AaronBrown]

If you play rebuys and don't rebuy, you're at a big disadvantage. Much better to avoid them. If you do play rebuys, make up your mind at the beginning to take maximum advantage, and make sure you have the bankroll to do it. You'll have a solid edge due to the players who can't or won't rebuy.

The reason the rebuy is good is chips are more valuable to low stack players than high stack. Your probability of winning the tournament is close to proportional to your stack if players are equal. But the winner is penalized because he wins all the chips, but only collects a portion. The more chips you have, the bigger this penalty. Therefore, the fewer chips you have, the bigger your advantage.

The degree of advantage depends on the payout structure of the tournament, plus other factors like the distribution of playing skill, but for a random example say your expectation is the average of 1/N, where N is the number of players left and S/T where S is your stack and T is the total stack.

At the start of the tournament these are the same, and equal to the cost of your buy-in minus rake. But suppose the tournament started out with 100 players and a $500 buy-in (after rake). Your initial expectation was $50,000*(1/100 + $500/$50,000)/2 = $500. But now the tournament is down to 49 other players, your rebuy is worth $50,500*(1/50 + $500/$50,500)/2 = $755.

Of course, that's only if no one else buys in. But to the extent they do, it means the advantage of rebuying declines, but so does the expectation if you don't rebuy. The relative advantage of rebuys stays the same.

[mudbuddha]

i dont know if i can agree. ive had alot of success in rebuys.. i dont know what it is, i play them as if their not rebuys and hope that i have idiots at my table who are willing to rebuy.
Hopefully I will find 1-2 guys who keep rebuying the whole way through and hopefully you wont have to..
i like rebuys bc alot of the peopel who get throught the rebuy period are god awful and they will end up being out right away when they cannot rebuy anymore.
Bigger prize pool.. same # of entries.. works 4 me..

[DRKEVDC]

If I want to play in a re-buy I figure in an initial buy, an add on and possibly one re-buy. If that pushes me over what I want to invest I find a cheaper buy in.

[JonPKibble]

[ QUOTE ]
If you play rebuys and don't rebuy, you're at a big disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you don't rebuy, but double up twice? Isn't that better than rebuying?

[mudbuddha]

much better

[TomCollins]

That's like sayign "well winning a tourney without rebuying is better than rebuying and bubbling".

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Doubling up twice after you rebought is significantly better than not rebuying and doubling up twice.

[AaronBrown]

I agree that rebuying when you're a bad player is stupid, but so is entering the tournament in the first place. Good player or bad, the rebuy is a better investment than the initial buy-in.

Look at it this way. Suppose you had the opportunity in a nonrebuy tournament to sit out until half the players were gone. Of course you'd take it. Although you would have half the average stack when you started playing, you'd be in better shape than a lot of players. A few rounds of cautious play, without taking a chance, and you could be in the money. You wouldn't figure to win the tournament, but your expected return would be better than you could get playing in the first half. If you wouldn't play the first half given the option, then you should rebuy if you have that chance.

I also agree that a rebuy tournament generally has a higher proportion of stupid money than stupid players. If half the players are bad, they will tend to go out early, and many of them will rebuy. The other half of the players will not qualify for rebuys as much, because they are better. Of course, it's a big advantage that more money is put up by the bad players. If you can just play even with the good ones, you're way ahead.

You say you have success, but unless you get to freezeout, or whatever the rebuy limit is, 100% of the time (in which case this issue doesn't come up) you are missing the opportunity to have more success by rebuying.

[binions]

I play the Stars 10R at 9:15 pm fairly often. Have won it a couple of times, and made many final tables.

Here's the deal - ~25% of the field drops out in the first hour, and there is $50-55 in the prize pool for every player remaining at the break. Meaning if you get to the break for $31, $41 or $51, you are paying a zero or negative rake.

So, don't look at it like a $10 tourney. It's really a $50 tourney which sometimes you get to play for $31 and other times you have to pay $101.

Moreover, because the # of places paid depends on the number of entrants, usually 12-14% of the people remaining at the break will make the money - which is more than your standard 10%.

It's the best deal going assuming you are a competent tournament player.

If you are a great player (which I am trying to become), then you should play crazy the first hour, and be willing to spend $150 routinely. Why? Because the huge chip stacks that are attainable that way are dynamite in the proper hands. At worst, you chip up the table and take them back in the second hour. And, if you are a great player, then the bankroll shouldn't be a concern as you keep rebuying.

[JonPKibble]

[ QUOTE ]
That's like sayign "well winning a tourney without rebuying is better than rebuying and bubbling".

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Doubling up twice after you rebought is significantly better than not rebuying and doubling up twice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we're not on the same page here --- I'm assuming the rebuy is only an option if a player has run out of chips. If the rebuy can be used as soon as you are below the starting chip count, then of course it's beneficial to use it. In that case you'd simply treat the tournament as a higher buy in tournament, using a rebuy whenever possible. However, all rebuy tournaments (online and offline) that I've played in only allow rebuys if you run out of chips. What you're referring to is usually called an add-on.

[benkahuna]

I've played in tournaments on pokerroom that let you rebuy once any time with the starting chips or less and that also allow one add on.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming the rebuy is only an option if a player has run out of chips. All rebuy tournaments (online and offline) that I've played in only allow rebuys if you run out of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must not play in the most popular online rebuys, because both Stars and Party allow rebuys if you are at or below your initial allotment of chips.

[mudbuddha]

whats your ROI or ITM rate for these tournies??? must b pretty high if your spending atleast 50$ each time?

[jccookjr]

Party also lets you add-on when you go all in. Most people click the rebuy button as soon as they push all their chips in. So, you double up and add an extra 1,000 chips, if you win the hand.

[mudbuddha]

yeah i herad about that glitch
what a terirble glitch

[meow_meow]

As other posters have noted, you are thinking about these in entirely the wrong way.

For most rebuy tourneys, you should pretty much rebuy right away, and always take the add-on, so that's a minimum of 3 buy-ins right there.

Think of a 10+1 rebuy tourney like you would a 30+3 or 50+5 regular tourney.