Is it spewing or a good move?

[goofball]

The only other info is that UTG has been doing a lot of donkbetting.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>.

[ggbman]

Spewage i'm afraid, you're just about never winning this pot without a showdown.

[wheelz]

I'll say spewing. They're both already in for a bet on the turn and the pot is nearing a large size, I doubt this works often enough.

Is calling this preflop standard? I'm pretty clueless when it comes to playing out of the SB to a non-steal raise

[New001]

Heads up, maybe. You saw there's a caller there, right?

[Catt]

I vote spew, although that is probably too strong a description. The pot is protected by button so the chance of folding both of them out with the raise is pretty small, IMHO. Since you can't fold them out in most circumstances, the raise needs to be for value or because it purchases some other valuable commodity. You might get a free showdown, depending on the remaining turn action and what falls on the river, but this isn't really a hand on which I am rooting for a free showdown. I'd rather bank on hitting a 4 or a 5 on the river and raising what I hope will be another bet from UTG or possibly button. If you get three-bet here you really can't fold and I don't think you have the equity to be happy about putting in more than you needed to here. I'd like this a lot better if you were acting directly after the PFR so you face one player with 2 cold and the PFR with a raise that might be tough for him to call.

[goofball]

This isn't a move I make often.

Preflop: ok, I have a suited connector, i'm getting something like 6:1 to see 3 cards, I'll take it.

Flop: I flopped a pair and a couple of backdoor draws, I'm probably going to see the turn but I think it's best to check and see what action develops. UTG has been donkbetting a lot so maybe he'll do that now and I can see how PF raiser reacts. Sweet, utg donkbet and PF raiser just called. There's no way he calls and calls again on the turn with a hand that has a pair in it. Getting very good odds with 7+outs I call.


Turn: Time to check and see what PF raiser has. UTG will bet again with almost anything, if PF raiser just calls I'm 90% sure I have him beat. With the help of PF raiser calling all the way my checkraise will now look very strong to UTG since the pot isn't heads up and I"m checkraising both abettor and a caller. Button will probably call with a hand I beat, but UTG will definietly fold a hand I beat, and might even fold somthing like A7, I raise.

[wheelz]

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The only other info is that UTG has been doing a lot of donkbetting.

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if PF raiser just calls I'm 90% sure I have him beat.

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What other info are you holding out on us goofball?

[goofball]

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The only other info is that UTG has been doing a lot of donkbetting.

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if PF raiser just calls I'm 90% sure I have him beat.

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What other info are you holding out on us goofball?

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PF raisers who call flops then call turns don't have pairs.

[Catt]

Good thought process.

You're giving a lot of credit to UTG donker recognizing that your C/R of two players represents more strength than it otherwise would. And you're giving button likely 10:1 to call closing the action, plus the risk that he's been going for overcalls or is otherwise more passive than you would expect. Assuming you are ahead, button may have as many as 15 outs against you since the turn was a heart, and almost certainly has 6 outs. The donk bettor also may be ahead and if not likely has outs against you. I just think that the parlay of good things that have to happen is fairly attenuated for your play here and I save my turn raises for those times when I am more confident I have the best hand which is not against a wide range of redraws or those times when, due to player reads, the chance of folding out the field is greater. As I said, I think "spew" is too strong a description, but I think calling is better than raising here in this situation.

[wheelz]

OK maybe they usually don't, but can you really assume that from an unknown?

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm getting something like 6:1 to see 3 cards

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something?

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'm getting something like 6:1 to see 3 cards

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something?

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Yeah, i did the math quickly and I'm still getting yanked loose fro teh 2/3 blind structure. Fine, 3.5-1, still worth it to see the flop imo.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'm getting something like 6:1 to see 3 cards

[/ QUOTE ]

something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i did the math quickly and I'm still getting yanked loose fro teh 2/3 blind structure. Fine, 3.5-1, still worth it to see the flop imo.

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I know a lot of people around here dislike preflop arguments and think it makes little difference but I sure think this is a fold preflop. I think it was Andy Fox or Tommy who said they would prefer not to play the worst hand with the worst position.