ilya
08-19-2005, 07:09 PM
Ok now that I maybe have your attention...
So I've been going through the archives reading all of Unarmed's old posts (and cringing in shame as I occasionally ran into one of my own foolishly insolent posts...Irie, I AM sorry), and I found this hand that Networkman posted back in April:
MP2 is a chronic limper and calling station, SB is a good player
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t1075)
CO (t740)
Button (t580)
SB (t1555)
Hero (t1915)
UTG (t1335)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 7h, Ah.
2 folds, MP2 calls t100, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.
Flop: (t300) Qh, 8h, 7s (3 players)
SB bets t150
( link (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2136596 &Forum=f22&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=200&Main=2136 252&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=8521&daterange= 1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&body prev=#Post2136596) )
Posters suggested several lines during the discussion:
Unarmed suggested calling, inviting the MP calling station to come along sweetening the odds.
Phil Van Sexton (where are you, Phil?!) suggested pushing right away, while the pot was still not too large and you could hope to have some FE. He argued that calling would get too expensive is SB bet the turn, and that a re-raise from MP would put us in an unpleasant position.
Adanthar warmed to the idea of raising to 450, thinking he could often take down the pot immediately, and that even if SB called he would likely check the turn and Hero could check behind for his free card.
One problem I see with all these lines is that they all look like lines a draw would take. An addiitional problem with Unarmed's line is that it doesn't give either of his opponents a chance to fold.
So...what about this. Raise the flop to 500-550. This puts pressure on the SB to fold immediately and might convince the MP to dump hands which could cause problems on the turn (e.g, JT). But next, if SB calls and checks the turn, push instead of checking behind.
Checking behind on the turn reveals you're on a draw anyway, so you're unlikely to get anything out of the SB if you hit on the river. Why not continue to represent the strong made hand and give SB another chance to fold? And even if he calls, it's not so terrible -- the pot will be giving us about 2:1 on the turn, and we won't be much worse than that to improve. But I think he will fold very often. What strong hand feels safe enough on this board to just call the flop raise and then check the turn? And what strong hand would bother, when someone has shown interest in playing a big pot on the flop?
So I've been going through the archives reading all of Unarmed's old posts (and cringing in shame as I occasionally ran into one of my own foolishly insolent posts...Irie, I AM sorry), and I found this hand that Networkman posted back in April:
MP2 is a chronic limper and calling station, SB is a good player
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t1075)
CO (t740)
Button (t580)
SB (t1555)
Hero (t1915)
UTG (t1335)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 7h, Ah.
2 folds, MP2 calls t100, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.
Flop: (t300) Qh, 8h, 7s (3 players)
SB bets t150
( link (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2136596 &Forum=f22&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=200&Main=2136 252&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=8521&daterange= 1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&body prev=#Post2136596) )
Posters suggested several lines during the discussion:
Unarmed suggested calling, inviting the MP calling station to come along sweetening the odds.
Phil Van Sexton (where are you, Phil?!) suggested pushing right away, while the pot was still not too large and you could hope to have some FE. He argued that calling would get too expensive is SB bet the turn, and that a re-raise from MP would put us in an unpleasant position.
Adanthar warmed to the idea of raising to 450, thinking he could often take down the pot immediately, and that even if SB called he would likely check the turn and Hero could check behind for his free card.
One problem I see with all these lines is that they all look like lines a draw would take. An addiitional problem with Unarmed's line is that it doesn't give either of his opponents a chance to fold.
So...what about this. Raise the flop to 500-550. This puts pressure on the SB to fold immediately and might convince the MP to dump hands which could cause problems on the turn (e.g, JT). But next, if SB calls and checks the turn, push instead of checking behind.
Checking behind on the turn reveals you're on a draw anyway, so you're unlikely to get anything out of the SB if you hit on the river. Why not continue to represent the strong made hand and give SB another chance to fold? And even if he calls, it's not so terrible -- the pot will be giving us about 2:1 on the turn, and we won't be much worse than that to improve. But I think he will fold very often. What strong hand feels safe enough on this board to just call the flop raise and then check the turn? And what strong hand would bother, when someone has shown interest in playing a big pot on the flop?