Funky KK hand

[DrPublo]

PP 100NL. Standard opponents.

One limp to me on the CO ($140), and I raise to $5 with KK. Button folds and BB (unremarkable, covers me) reraises to $15. Limper folds and I call.

Flop ($30): 393r.

He bets $25. I figure I'm way ahead or way behind here and just call, intending to call down.

Turn ($80): [3 9 3] A, completing the rainbow

Uh oh.

He bets $20, which is small. He either really liked or really disliked this card. I figure aces full will check, so now I really dont know what to do. I think if I call here he probably won't bet QQ again on the river but probably will bet again with an ace. I call.

River ($120): Brick. [3 9 3] A x

He bets $75, which is exactly what I have left.

I fold with a very dissatisfied taste in my mouth. Fold the turn?

The Doc

[IamLeach]

I like your line of just calling the flop bet, but I think i would raise it here. Also I think I would re-raise pre-flop (but even as I type it it seems like bad advice and i don't know why.) As you played it, i would strongly consider folding the turn bet or raising the turn bet. Call seems out of line here. the raise on the turn bet gives you much more information IMO. where as the call is weak and doesn't help you.

[SlyAK]

[ QUOTE ]
Also I think I would re-raise pre-flop (but even as I type it it seems like bad advice and i don't know why.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason why is that throwing in another raise PF should make it clear to villain that hero has AA or KK, therefore allowing villain to fold all hands that hero beats, like QQ/AK.

Sly

[IamLeach]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
Also I think I would re-raise pre-flop (but even as I type it it seems like bad advice and i don't know why.)



The reason why is that throwing in another raise PF should make it clear to villain that hero has AA or KK, therefore allowing villain to fold all hands that hero beats, like QQ/AK.

Sly

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out for me. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[DrPublo]

Villain bets $20 into me on the turn. I have $95 and the pot is $80. What raise can I make that is not pot committing?

The Doc

[SlyAK]

You can't raise the turn w/o getting pot committed. Your line seems fine. I might even fold the turn here.

Sly

Ps. There is NO way I would call the river either.

[DrPublo]

I can't see folding the turn when he bet less than he did on the flop AND the pot is bigger. Seems like he doesn't like the card. I think any hand without an A will check after I call the turn bet, right?

The Doc

[trigeek08]

You are giving villian way to much credit by thinking he will lay down a hand like JJ/QQ/AQ/AK pre-flop to a re-raise. If villin has JJ he will put hero on AK, same with QQ. If villian has AK he will put hero on AQ, KQ, or maybe even hands like KJ/KT since there was only one limper when hero raised in a steal position.

Now, without the reraise pf, a raise on the flop is in order. Maybe I am just a little new to this, but I would imagine villian going for a check/raise with a hand like AA or QQ. The $25 bet seems more like a continuation bet.

Turn. Since villian is "unremarkable" I would imagine that he has now made his hand and is telling himself, "What kinda bet can I put out there that will get this guy to pay off my AK?" I can't imagine him putting out a deffensive/blocker bet when this ace falls

River. Good fold. He has convinced himself that you have a hand you will pay him off with and he in turn puts you in.

[DrPublo]

Your preflop thoughts are just plain wrong. Heads up or 3 handed, maybe. But in a full 6max game a preflop 3-bet ALWAYS means AA. Moreover, by 3-betting I allow him to drop all worse hands. This is perfectly well explained in R&C, I suggest you go pick it up.

Your thoughts on the flop are wrong too. I am either way ahead (he's drawing to 2 or 3 outs), or way behind (drawing to 2 outs). Raising is bad.

I also think your interpretation of the super small turn bet doesn't make sense with average player's thought processes.

The Doc

[trigeek08]

[ QUOTE ]
Your preflop thoughts are just plain wrong. Heads up or 3 handed, maybe. But in a full 6max game a preflop 3-bet ALWAYS means AA. Moreover, by 3-betting I allow him to drop all worse hands. This is perfectly well explained in R&C, I suggest you go pick it up.

Your thoughts on the flop are wrong too. I am either way ahead (he's drawing to 2 or 3 outs), or way behind (drawing to 2 outs). Raising is bad.

I also think your interpretation of the super small turn bet doesn't make sense with average player's thought processes.

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I thought I would take a shot at it. I felt that a pf three-bet may also look like you are trying to regain controll of the hand. I am just not big on calling the flop bet. It still leaves you wondering whether you are ahead or behind. I also do not give villian as being able to think on the level of the "average player. Thanks for the constructive criticism (I will at least interpret it as that.)

[DrPublo]

Ok, I'll take another shot at it. Let's think about a hypothetical where the turn and river are both total bricks. Lets say they're running deuces.

Do you see how I make more when I'm ahead and lose less when I'm behind by just calling down with KK in this spot?

The Doc

[Allinlife]

given how you played it, I think you gotta call the river

[trigeek08]

I understand your point. I just don't like to be left wondering what I am up agianst.

[yvesaint]

3-bet pf is AA or KK almost every time, given the average TAG 6-max player. You can't say Villain is going to 'convince himself' that you have AK when he holds JJ, or 'convince himself' you have AQ when he holds AK, that's wishful thinking. Unless you're a major LAG, a 3-bet pf will let him drop JJ, probably QQ, and every other hand you're far ahead of that he could be re-raising with - AK-AJ.

I think I might call this river. 50/50, I still have to think about it, that turn bet seems really weird.

[trigeek08]

Am I not giving enough credit to the average $100NL Party Poker player? AJ/AQ/AK/JJ/QQ/KK/AA are all hands that I would expect the average "unremarkable" PartyPoker $100NL player to re-raise out of the BB with. One of those hands has you beat, and only two of them I can see being folded by villian. If this player is "unremarkable" than why do we give him credit for being able to fold a hand like AK or QQ pre-flop? I am sure that most TAG's on this site could interpret your three-bet as AA or KK, but I would imagine that villian interpreted it as, "Sweet! this guy is putting all his money in the middle when I have QQ!"

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
given how you played it, I think you gotta call the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence the awful taste in my mouth, as when I call the turn bet I'm saying he has a lower pair then KK and was trying to use the A to get me to fold a higher pair.

But, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, the stacks are such that I cannot raise the turn and not pot commit myself.

Ugliness all around.

The Doc