Butchered Boat

[SlyAK]

This is just awful..... Important stacks ME ($99), BB covers, button $75 or so.

I am dealt 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif UTG+1, I limp, 2 other limpers, BB comes along.

Flop: 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif .... BB leads for $4, I make it $12, Button cold calls. BB folds.

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif check, check.

River: 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif I lead for $15, button raises to $35. I fold.

Let me have it!

Sly

[orange]

I would probobly check/call a reasonable bet on the river. Button cold-calling is scary. Maybe I'm just weak...

[taran]

Bet turn, full pot.

[CaptainNoBeard]

i like check-calling the river.

once the bb calls, narrow his range to a 7 or a pocket pair. way ahead, way behind situation. check the turn. check-call the river. by checking, some hands worse than yours will take a stab at it, and quads will naturally bet as well, but it'll cost less than betting and facing a raise- you get value out of some worse hands, and you lose less when you're beat.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet turn, full pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[BigF]

Your 88 is probably good. If he had a 7 he would have bet the turn.

[taran]

well. 'cause hero does not want anything higher then 8 or h fall on river. If he has A and drawing, you have to price it. In addition you gain information. If he has 7, bigger pair he might re-raise figuring hero for the boat and we will fold.

[GrunchCan]

It sounds to me like more a case for just calling the flop bet, in that case.

If the opponent has AK, for instance, do we really want him to fold? Or would we rather he just keep betting incorrectly?

If the opponent has a higher pair, our raise only loses us money.

If the opponent has a lower pair, our rasie kills the action, thereby losing us money.

Sounds to me like calling the flop is the way to go here.

[CaptainNoBeard]

[ QUOTE ]
hero does not want anything higher then 8 or h fall on river.

[/ QUOTE ]

hero isn't too concerned about heart falling on the river. and cold-calling a flop raise to see a turn with high cards isn't likely, either.

[ QUOTE ]
you have to price it. In addition you gain information. If he has 7, bigger pair he might re-raise figuring hero for the boat and we will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think you get as much information as you think. he's not automatically coming over the top on the turn with a 7- he might want to wait and see if we hang outselves on the river. the way we played the flop (seems too fast for us to have quads), pocket 9's and above aren't folding to a turn pot bet. and if an underpair to the seven folds, thats no good.

checking turn keeps the pot under control. by betting, we build a pot out of position, don't get much information. and by checking the river with the intention of calling, we get worse hands to bet, and it costs us considerably less when we're beat.

[Raven]

I dont think that you have made any big mistake at all in this hand. When the button cold-call a raise on this flop it is scary. Im usually done for the hand after that with 88 except if he is a total calling station.

On the river you have to ask yourself what hands strong enough to call a raise on the flop will call on the river and be worse than 88. I dont think its a good bet because of that.

You would be better to check and call a small bet and fold to a big bet IMO.

[CaptainNoBeard]

[ QUOTE ]
If the opponent has AK, for instance, do we really want him to fold? Or would we rather he just keep betting incorrectly?

[/ QUOTE ]

if its just the two of us, and we could put him squarely on AK, thats a fine thought process. but we're dealing with a handful of limpers. any broadway card is a scare card. and the fact that we're not closing the action weighs in on it- by calling, its easier for another limper to peel a card off with some high cards. we won't have position on anyone but the original bettor.

[ QUOTE ]
If the opponent has a higher pair, our raise only loses us money.

[/ QUOTE ]

taking into account the limping, a lower pair / broadway cards hand is much more likely than 9's and up. raise accordingly. and be content to take it down. facing an overcard out of position against two opponents is not something we want to (or have to) deal with.

[ QUOTE ]
If the opponent has a lower pair, our rasie kills the action, thereby losing us money.

[/ QUOTE ]

he might fold sixes or lower there, but its not likely at this level. also, a flop raise prevents a hand like 6's from coming over the top and making us fold a better hand. pocket sixes or worse aren't reraising his flop- by raising, i think you can get away from this hand easier if you are reraised on the flop. if you just call and its raised behind you, it makes for a tougher decision.

i still like the flop raise.

[IamLeach]

[ QUOTE ]
i like check-calling the river.

once the bb calls, narrow his range to a 7 or a pocket pair. way ahead, way behind situation. check the turn. check-call the river. by checking, some hands worse than yours will take a stab at it, and quads will naturally bet as well, but it'll cost less than betting and facing a raise- you get value out of some worse hands, and you lose less when you're beat.


[/ QUOTE ]

[GrunchCan]

Somehow I missed the button. I thought it was HU after the flop, and we were in position.

Based on this, I like the way the hero played it, except I also prefer check-calling the river.

How's that for an about-face?

[SlyAK]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on this, I like the way the hero played it, except I also prefer check-calling the river.



[/ QUOTE ]


In hindsight I definitely should have check-called the river, the only reason I put out the bet, (it was a blocking bet, not a value bet,) was so that I wouldnt have to call a $25 or $30 bet from villain. Not good thinking on my part as he seemed to be playing passively and probably wouldn't have bet too much on the river anyway.

I am glad to see that the concensus is that a check-call on the river is correct because that is what I thought as soon as the hand was over.

Sly