$22 hand, second nuts on the river

[jeffraider]

***** Hand History for Game 2561580860 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:14975996 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Friday, August 19, 13:50:42 EDT 2005
Table Table 14272 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 5: Pete76K ( $710 )
Seat 6: walter84 ( $1475 )
Seat 8: raytak ( $1810 )
Seat 9: aziz99 ( $1690 )
Seat 10: ripd1 ( $770 )
Seat 2: smokinfiend ( $770 )
Seat 4: Bubbles1911 ( $775 )
Trny:14975996 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Bubbles1911 [ Kd 2d ]
Pete76K folds.
walter84: 3 gone in level 1...cool
walter84 calls [15].
raytak calls [15].
aziz99 folds.
ripd1 folds.
smokinfiend calls [5].
Bubbles1911 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, Js, 5c ]
smokinfiend checks.
Bubbles1911 checks.
walter84 checks.
raytak checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]
>You have options at Table 13872 Table!.
smokinfiend bets [15].
Bubbles1911 calls [15].
walter84 calls [15].
raytak calls [15].
>You have options at Table 13872 Table!.
** Dealing River ** [ Qd ]
>You have options at Table 13887 Table!.
smokinfiend bets [15].
Bubbles1911 raises [70].
walter84 folds.
raytak folds.
smokinfiend raises [110].
Bubbles1911 raises [205].
smokinfiend raises [300].
Bubbles1911 ?

[tigerite]

Fold.

Oh sorry, I mis-spelt push there.

Strange raises...Push. I guess you could just call if you really thought he had Axd to give yourself a chance to come back. The size of his raises would kind of freak me out this early so I might just call...although value raises like that would be pretty fancy play for 22s.

[bluefeet]

absolutely pushing. if he's got it, he's got it.

[jedinite]

[ QUOTE ]
absolutely pushing

[/ QUOTE ]
At the $22, every time. If he's got the pure nuts, start another SNG.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qd ]
>You have options at Table 13887 Table!.
smokinfiend bets [15].
Bubbles1911 raises [70].
walter84 folds.
raytak folds.
smokinfiend raises [110].
Bubbles1911 raises [205].

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who would have flat called smokinfiend's re-raise here? His river bets don't strike anyone else as remotely suspicious and begging for you to push?

[tigerite]

At a $20+$2? Nah. Could just as well be AA thinking he's still got the holy nuts.

[jedinite]

Agreed. At the $22 I'm going broke on this hand, if he's got the nuts.
I assume two pair or a set. If he's got the nuts, he gets a note that he's tricky and I'll see him again sometime...

Could have called the first re-raise, as you suggested, but certainly once you re-re-raised you were pot committed - you can't just call the last 300, you've got to push now.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]

absolutely pushing. if he's got it, he's got it.

[/ QUOTE ]


" Am I the only one who would have flat called smokinfiend's re-raise here? His river bets don't strike anyone else as remotely suspicious and begging for you to push? "


yeah...i honestly can't back up my first statement - entirely. in principal i'm fairly certain you have THEE hand. but on most occasion i DO accept 'the out' on the river raisings, aware of what the true nut is. there is absolutely nothing wrong with simply calling the reraise - certainly a prudent thing to do. but i guess an argument could be made that the +$$ you get the far majority of the time, more than compensates for the -$$ when he "nuts" you.

[pokerdirty]

[ QUOTE ]
The size of his raises would kind of freak me out this early so I might just call...

[/ QUOTE ]

I see this kind of play all the time at the 11s and 22s with the nut flush. They minraise because they feel if they feel that's the only way they are going to get paid off. after raising and reraising and reraising, what else could the guy have other than a very poorly played 46 or maybe T9d?

I like to call here because if you win you are ~3 place, and if not, it's level 1, you have plenty of time to get back in the game.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah...i honestly can't back up my first statement - entirely. in principal i'm fairly certain you have THEE hand. but on most occasion i DO accept 'the out' on the river raisings, aware of what the true nut is. there is absolutely nothing wrong with simply calling the reraise - certainly a prudent thing to do. but i guess an argument could be made that the +$$ you get the far majority of the time, more than compensates for the -$$ when he "nuts" you.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, there has been NO betting up to the river. I mean, these guys are idiots, but even the biggest idiot can see a rivered 3-flush. I'm confident enough in my ability against these donkeys that I'm okay with just calling the re-raise. If I missed out on a few chips, that's okay, because the times where I don't bust out, I can come back and still win the tournament.

I really think that even after the last re-raise, the correct thing to do is just call.

[jedinite]

I agree with a lot of the late assesment in general, but still don't over-estimate the abiility at the $10+1 level. Three flush on board, even with runner-runner, and oftentimes this betting patten can still be someone who hit a set on the turn, two pair on the turn + river, or any flush at all.

But I still say to push this river to the second re-raise every time, i think we're pot committed here after we re-raised the first time. Mostly because I don't want to play this out, crippled this early in level two.

Just calling the first re-raise is an option for sure, but at this point in the hand I'm going to push every time if I'm still on the $10+1.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
But I still say to push this river to the second re-raise every time, i think we're pot committed here after we re-raised the first time. Mostly because I don't want to play this out, crippled this early in level two.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't like this way of thinking. You would have t440 if you called. That's almost 15 BBs! You can't just give up at that point. You're situation would not even be desperate.

You guys have to stop making plays simply because you convince yourself that you're pot committed or that you can't come back if you get down to 15 BBs in level two. I mean, if you think that there's a reasonable chance that you're beaten, respect Gambler's Ruin and just call here. Everything about this hand says that he's trying to bait you to push. Coming back from t440 in level two is not out of the question AT ALL.

[adanthar]

Wow, 6 people said push and not one of them are saying what four raises mean besides 'hey, maybe he has AA'.

I just call the 110 reraise, never mind the fourth one. These people may be dumb (as the river bet proves) but they're generally not totally suicidal. Generally. (Sure, you run into the occasional idiot with two pair - just not enough to be good the 50% of the time you need to push instead of call.)

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, 6 people said push and not one of them are saying what four raises mean besides 'hey, maybe he has AA'.

I just call the 110 reraise, never mind the fourth one. These people may be dumb (as the river bet proves) but they're generally not totally suicidal. Generally. (Sure, you run into the occasional idiot with two pair - just not enough to be good the 50% of the time you need to push instead of call.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more concerned with the pansy raise to 205. I'd make it 400 or maybe even a push. But yeah, I agree you need to call the rerereminminraise.

Just my thoughts on the subject...
Don't like the mini reraise to 205 after he reraise your 70 to 110...I think with the 2nd nuts in that situation you obviously thought you had the best hand, and wanted more money, so his raise was advantagous to you. But by raising to 205, you put yourself in a position to be outplayed. You are now thinking if he has the hand better than yours, and this hand would also be the nuts...is he really betting out 15 with the nuts in this situation, especially when a Q and a J are out there as well as a weak straight on the turn? And if your are worried about the reraises, well what if he was playing a weaker flush than yours? In that situation you sort of got "outplayed" by a weaker flush by getting you to call instead of pushing with a smallish stack. I'm definitely still learning, but one thing I have noticed is that when blinds are small LOTS of players decide to play their lower suited connectors because its cheap to play. Of course Ax suited fits this situation as well, but I say if you play a Kx suited and you make a flush and the person playing with you has a small stack like yours, you must simply decide that you outdrew him and push. Just my opinion...