Live 1-3 NL at the Wynn

[durron597]

Alright, I know that preflop is questionable. Just assume it and take it in stride. My image is definitely tightish, I am only playing this hand because I don't expect a raise from the blinds and my opponents in general play bad.

Full table. Five limpers to me in the button, I look down and my cards connect, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif so I limp ($100). SB completes and BB checks, 8 of us.

Flop 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($24). Checks to UTG+1 who bets $15. He has ($200) behind and seems to be one of those thinking bad players. He talks a lot about rakeback and how he lives off of being a party affiliate but he likes to bluff into people who very obviously have made hands and is getting caught a lot. He also is too loose preflop. However I'm thinking this is less likely to be a bluff because he keeps getting called recently and he seems less, I dunno, interested in the betting. I don't play live much but I don't think he's bluffing this time.

Folds to CO ($300) who is one of the tightest players preflop but is willing to take stabs postflop, though still in general pretty tight and good. I've seen him make what I think are bets into unclaimed pots with air but I've never seen him get caught bluff raising. He makes it $45.

Hero...?

P.S. To the tight 2+2er in the 4 seat who turned 21 today, yes it was obvious you were 2+2 when you knew what the Dan Druff Stars bad beat post was about, just like I'm sure you realized I was 2+2. Happy birthday.

[durron597]

I guess the lack of replies means this is an easy.... what?

[savman]

fold pf. u have 33bb behind, play big cards and play them fast. u really need larger stacks to make playing trash profitable. (sounds funny when i say that...lol) also, when playing small stakes NL, especially shallow stacks, sc's and trash are hard if not impossible to play prfitably. post flop...easy fold...in an unraised pot any cards could be out...i wouldnt be surprised if one guy had a small-medium pp and the raiser had str8 or pair+flushdraw something like that.....i mean someone could have the flat tire and u are crushed,,,who knows...easy fold./

[durron597]

Well given my cards it makes it unlikely that a set is out, unless one of them has 22. And of course A5 or 56 could be out in an 8 way pot.

It may be a leak of mine that I don't like to get involved in raising wars without the mortal nuts.

Top two is a good hand, but not a great one... but my stack is so short for a cash game. Isn't the reason for playing short that you can go broke on a hand like this and just rebuy?

[kongo_totte]

It's a quite tricky and interesting hand IMO. Of course you should fold pre-flop, but let's assume you are suited.

It's push or fold IMO, since you'll be committed on the turn, and it's unlikely any turn card will make your decision any easier (unless it's a 3 or 4 of course).

You don't think UTG+1 is bluffing. If you push, I don't see a worse hand calling, so you either loose your stack (i.e. going to the turn with 4 outs) or win $84. I also don't see any hand you beat folding, so one could say you are getting about 1:1 on your money if you push.

It's also hard to put both villians on a range of hands since this could be anything between an over pair to the nuts (or a flush draw).

I fold this, but I am the most weak tight guy on this forum.

EDIT: I assume a worse hand will call and that is the re-raiser if he has the flush draw, so some of my reasoning is flawed.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
If you push, I don't see a worse hand calling,

[/ QUOTE ]

The CO pretty much cannot fold unless he was totally bluffing. He is getting almost 3:1, and he is good enough to understand that he just be calling with basically any draw better than a gutshot and hands like A4 or 77. However he will almost certainly fold if UTG+1 overpushes.

And as far as the button limp is concerned, I don't do it except in this exact situation. 5 limpers to me in the CO I fold. But position is power in NL and players were respecting my bets, I thought that in the right situation I could take down the pot with air often enough to make the limp +EV. Obviously what happened is not that situation but anyway.

[kongo_totte]

Sorry. I should have made it clear: I don't see any made hand that you beat calling.

[Eegs]

pooooooooooosh..lot of draws out there and pretty unlikely either has a set. Hope your top two hold up

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
pooooooooooosh..lot of draws out there and pretty unlikely either has a set. Hope your top two hold up

[/ QUOTE ]

No way in hell am I calling. What about the chances I am already beaten by a tight player raising big?

[DoomSlice]

In an 8 way pot, it's not going to be uncommon to see A5. But you've got a good hand -- and many times tighties might overplay a hand like 88 here even though they limped it.

PUSH!

[runnerunner]

You need to push. You probably will get called by a pair and a straight draw and be a favorite. You have outs against a made straight and this will be great for your 'tightish' image. You are pretty short and have top two, so get your money in the middle. Who knows? you may even get called by an overpair.

[Rococo]

Obvious push or fold situation. Obvious push. Not close at all given your stack size. My guess is that original bettor is being a donkey with a diamond draw and tight player has a middle pair and is trying to isolate.

[kongo_totte]

Actually, hearing others inputs, I change my opinion to a push. You are 16% to win against any hand.

[rydazzle]

sup bro, what are you doing away from the SNGs /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think pre-flop is fine, you have enough callers to get stacked off if you hit the str8...I bet it's 50/50 on folks opinions here, but I dont see an issue.

on the flop, sounds like raise from LAG doesnt mean much, but the re-raise from the tight player *may*. I say *may* b/c he may have caught a piece of the flop and know what you do about the LAG...re-raise seems appropriate on a semi-bluff, $45 is a big bet for a made str8...maybe AXd?

even if both raisers don't have made hands yet you pretty much need to to push to protect yours..BUT this is a BAD baord to do it with IMO. Take sklansky's advice here and fold on the possible semi-bluff, you have too many ways to lose and may be way behind. its a tough laydown for me, Id have to have a pretty good read on the tight player to see what he would come over the top with. Your read, "but I've never seen him get caught bluff raising" says fold.

[rydazzle]

[ QUOTE ]
5 limpers to me in the CO I fold. But position is power in NL and players were respecting my bets, I thought that in the right situation I could take down the pot with air often enough to make the limp +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

You limped to put a probe bet out there if you wiffed with 5+ opponents and it checked to you? Table really that tight? I think thats too aggressive...

[rydazzle]

[ QUOTE ]
pooooooooooosh..

[/ QUOTE ]
yuck.

[rydazzle]

unreal. to make this play you have to have a great read on the re-raiser, that he'd re-raise semi-bluff. Hero's read is to the contrary, and with no reads myself I can't say push with any sort of confidence.

If this is LAG raise, LAG re-raise...sure, push is fine. Here is LAG raise, tight re-raise. Push is weak here, whats the point of a read if you dont use it correctly?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

If this is LAG raise, LAG re-raise...sure, push is fine. Here is LAG raise, tight re-raise. Push is weak here, whats the point of a read if you dont use it correctly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I'm too short to fold here. I almost left the Wynn when I wanted to buy in for $100 and realized the game was 1/3 when I wanted to play 1/2. I would have been happy to raise over the top of any one player but not when the tight guy raised.

So I thought for awhile and folded, but I seriously regretted it afterwards, despite the results; UTG+1 pushed over the top of the CO and the CO folded. I am certain he would not do that with a draw, not against the CO. Even with that result, I still think I should have pushed because of my stack size.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. I should have made it clear: I don't see any made hand that you beat calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

you haven't played much live. J4 will call.

[yellowjack]

[ QUOTE ]

P.S. To the tight 2+2er in the 4 seat who turned 21 today, yes it was obvious you were 2+2 when you knew what the Dan Druff Stars bad beat post was about, just like I'm sure you realized I was 2+2. Happy birthday.

[/ QUOTE ]

Linkage please? Or is just that post last week about Dan Druff going off on how he's been running bad (at the time) since the WSOP?

[Malachii]

I don't care about the preflop call. I wouldn't make it, but with 5 limpers infront of you who presumably play really badly postflop, it can't be that bad.

UTG+1 leads out and bets. We don't know very much about what he has. Possibilities include: A diamond draw, a medium overpair, an overpair with some kind of straight draw, a set, or a straight from a suited ace five or suited connectors. All possibilities at this point.

The cutoff (tight player) raises. He has a medium overpair, a set, a straight, a diamond draw, or a really big draw (something like A7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)

The problem as I see it is that while you have a nice hand, there are a lot of hands that beat you on a board this coordinated. What further complicates the issue is that you're sandwiched in between a raise and a reraise and therefore have to assume that if you play it will be for all of your chips.

Given these factors, I fold.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care about the preflop call. I wouldn't make it, but with 5 limpers infront of you who presumably play really badly postflop, it can't be that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I thought at the time. Plus, I felt like playing a hand, the pace is soooooooooooo much slower live...

[ QUOTE ]

The problem as I see it is that while you have a nice hand, there are a lot of hands that beat you on a board this coordinated. What further complicates the issue is that you're sandwiched in between a raise and a reraise and therefore have to assume that if you play it will be for all of your chips.

Given these factors, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was pretty much my exact logic at the time. However I think my stack is just small enough that I get action from hands I beat often enough... if I have $200 in front this is a fold. Still not sure about the $100.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
However I think my stack is just small enough that I get action from hands I beat often enough... if I have $200 in front this is a fold. Still not sure about the $100.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't even a fold with 100bbs.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However I think my stack is just small enough that I get action from hands I beat often enough... if I have $200 in front this is a fold. Still not sure about the $100.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't even a fold with 100bbs.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put the tight player on?

[durron597]

I just realized this, I should have put this in the OP. UTG+1 is the guy who runs

http://www.clubwager.net/

so if you know that guy feel free to factor it in to your analysis.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However I think my stack is just small enough that I get action from hands I beat often enough... if I have $200 in front this is a fold. Still not sure about the $100.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't even a fold with 100bbs.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put the tight player on?

[/ QUOTE ]

any overpair, pair + draw, top pair (a4? technically thats pair + draw as well) draw, mega draw, straight.