Having kids when you aren't wealthy....

[KaneKungFu123]

i have alot of respect for my parent and other people who raised kids on meager salaries.

but i also think its insane.

if you are rich, then you can have kids and still have freedom. you dont have to be a slave. your wife can pile a bunch of [censored] in a shopping cart and you dont have to think much about it. hell, i dont even know how anyone can have a wife without being rich when you consider how apt they are at burning money, and how many added expenses come along with a girl.

[casinogosain]

I keep telling my wife that there is no f***ing way that our parents bought all this crap for us. I agree KKF.

-Ash

[roxtar]

You don't have to be wealthy to have kids as long as you're willing to shift your priorities around in the best interest of the kids. That's called sacrifice, and if you really love your kids you do it regardless of how wealthy you are. It's inevitable. As far as grocery shopping goes, you're right... If you can't afford to buy groceries then you definately don't need to be having kids.

BTW..... The mother of your children should be a woman, not a girl. And if you really love her you won't mind the expense.

[touchfaith]

If you are not willing to be a slave to your children, at any income level...Don't have kids.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are not willing to be a slave to your children, at any income level...Don't have kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I disagree with this wholeheartedly, and it's why I find a lot of merit in what OP said. I don't think it's GOOD to be a slave to your children -- kids have SO many liberties, SO much "concern" constantly thrust on them from all angles...they end up being treated like they're some sort of deity...and that's why so many of them are brats that I'd just as soon kick in the junk as pass by them in the grocery store.

At the same time, if you don't have money -- you're gonna be a slave to your kids whether you lavish them with everything or not. You're gonna be a slave just to pay all the bills and keep them clothed, fed, in school, teach them some things, spend time with them...

Whereas...if you DO have money, you can afford to get your kids whatever they need, you have time to spend with your kids without it being your ONLY free time, AND you can afford babysitters for time just with your spouse. I maintain the happiest kids are ones who have parents that are happy with one another. Having money affords you the opportunity to take one night a week on your own, and maybe one week a year for an adults-only vacation...and STILL have the time and money you need to provide good things for your kids, as well.

Good post, OP.

I agree with you you KKF. I've basically come to the conclusion that most of the adults who were around in the 60's to the late 70's were idiots. My parents had me and my father made about 20,000 / year and he basically bitched about money all the time. I'd like to clock the F' out of him if I ever see him again.

[STLantny]

Whoever said earlier that if you love a women enough you wont mind the extra expenses. Bullshit.

[touchfaith]

I'll say it again...

If you are not willing to be a slave to your children...Do not have any.

Being a slave to your children isn't about money.

I'm too pissed and tired to explain life to you right now.

[ChipWrecked]

If you DO have money, yes, you can afford the time kids need to have spent on them.

If you are currently trying to make a lot of money, you are working long hours and are neglecting your kids emotional needs in my opinion. I think this is why there are so many upper-middle class school shooters.

My wife stays at home with our two-year old; we get by on what I make which keeps us alive and not much more.

For now, I wouldn't have it any other way. When all kids are in school, I will be perfectly fine to let her go earn the cash for some goodies /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I am willing to sacrifice so my very young children can have their mommy around all day.

[newfant]

Attitudes they are a changin'. It used to be people were expected to get married at an early age and start popping out babies. I think my parents got married under those expectations (dad was 21 and mom was 18).

Today I think married people still are pressured by society to have kids, but at least people are waiting longer to get married and are waiting longer to have kids. Having a sufficient amount of money and maturity makes everything easier (relationships, kids, life, etc).

[STLantny]

IMHO there are two types of guys:
Guy number 1:
Guy is kind of douche baggish, but not that bad. He is just there.
Guy gets a girl, and sings the praises of how its great to have a gf/kids/etc. Of course he is pussywhipped.
Guy gets married too early.
Guy ends up being unhappy after awhile.
Guy gets divorced.

Guy number 2.
Guy is not a douche bag.
Guy is fun, outgoing, has lots of friends.
Guy sleeps with a bunch of chicks, but doesnt stick to one.
Guy ends up getting married later in life 30-40.
Guy lives to be 90 with his wife.

This is from my experience from my friends, and family that I have noticed. It just seems that all the 19-23 year olds who sing the praises of being in a relationship, and make sure you know about it are the ones that [censored] up later in life. Dont be that guy.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO there are two types of guys:
Guy number 1:
Guy is kind of douche baggish, but not that bad. He is just there.
Guy gets a girl, and sings the praises of how its great to have a gf/kids/etc. Of course he is pussywhipped.
Guy gets married too early.
Guy ends up being unhappy after awhile.
Guy gets divorced.

Guy number 2.
Guy is not a douche bag.
Guy is fun, outgoing, has lots of friends.
Guy sleeps with a bunch of chicks, but doesnt stick to one.
Guy ends up getting married later in life 30-40.
Guy lives to be 90 with his wife.

This is from my experience from my friends, and family that I have noticed. It just seems that all the 19-23 year olds who sing the praises of being in a relationship, and make sure you know about it are the ones that [censored] up later in life. Dont be that guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

For guy #2
It's hard to believe you know people that have been married from 30 to 90 because at that time the vast majority of people were getting married much earlier than that.

[STLantny]

What I mean is, the people who do get married at 30-40, are truly much more happy than the kids that I see getting married now. They arent at that 50 year aniv, but you just know they will be.

[RacersEdge]

One thing I never agreed with was the idea of saving up money to hand to your kids for college. That's silly. If they know they have to pay off loans, they will not screw around in college.

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO there are two types of guys:
Guy number 1:
Guy is kind of douche baggish, but not that bad. He is just there.
Guy gets a girl, and sings the praises of how its great to have a gf/kids/etc. Of course he is pussywhipped.
Guy gets married too early.
Guy ends up being unhappy after awhile.
Guy gets divorced.

Guy number 2.
Guy is not a douche bag.
Guy is fun, outgoing, has lots of friends.
Guy sleeps with a bunch of chicks, but doesnt stick to one.
Guy ends up getting married later in life 30-40.
Guy lives to be 90 with his wife.

This is from my experience from my friends, and family that I have noticed. It just seems that all the 19-23 year olds who sing the praises of being in a relationship, and make sure you know about it are the ones that [censored] up later in life. Dont be that guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about guy number 3:

Guy is a douche.
Rarely gets laid.
No girl will have him.
He gets a good job and at 35-40 has enough money to purchase a mail-order bride from some foreign country.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are not willing to be a slave to your children, at any income level...Don't have kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I disagree with this wholeheartedly, and it's why I find a lot of merit in what OP said. I don't think it's GOOD to be a slave to your children -- kids have SO many liberties, SO much "concern" constantly thrust on them from all angles...they end up being treated like they're some sort of deity...and that's why so many of them are brats that I'd just as soon kick in the junk as pass by them in the grocery store.

At the same time, if you don't have money -- you're gonna be a slave to your kids whether you lavish them with everything or not. You're gonna be a slave just to pay all the bills and keep them clothed, fed, in school, teach them some things, spend time with them...

Whereas...if you DO have money, you can afford to get your kids whatever they need, you have time to spend with your kids without it being your ONLY free time, AND you can afford babysitters for time just with your spouse. I maintain the happiest kids are ones who have parents that are happy with one another. Having money affords you the opportunity to take one night a week on your own, and maybe one week a year for an adults-only vacation...and STILL have the time and money you need to provide good things for your kids, as well.

Good post, OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a really great post.

i [censored] hate parents that revolve around their kids.
where will we eat dinner? lets ask johnny, he is 5 and should decide for us. WTF?

i will have a kid, and love it, and it will be great.
but im not going to revolve around it. im not going to let my kid be the boss, like the majority of parents do.

and for other posters. i dont care about the added expenses. im not selfish. i just dont want to live pay check to paycheck and have to count pennies and have a stroke everyime i get the credit card bill.

i will have kids. but i will be an adult. they will be a kid. we are not the same. alot of parents act like they are the same.

[KaneKungFu123]

Yeah, I agree. People spoil the hell out of their kids. My Dad was a real dick sometimes, but he was honest about the world with me. he didnt make me close my eyes when the chick took her shirt off in a movie.

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I never agreed with was the idea of saving up money to hand to your kids for college. That's silly. If they know they have to pay off loans, they will not screw around in college.

[/ QUOTE ]

great post! i think about this often. if you're poor, DO NOT REPRODUCE! you simply cannot afford to raise a healthy, mentally stable family if you do not have boatloads of cash. PERIOD!

edit: i would just like to add that money isn't everything, it's the only thing. those who disagree, are obviously kidding themselves.

[touchfaith]

This thread is sad on many levels.

None of you should spawn.

Here's a hint:

Being a parent is about making sacrafices which afford your children opportunity.

If you consider something like leting a crying brat 5 year old choose where you eat "making a sacrafice" or "affording them opportunity"...

...You've already lost.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I never agreed with was the idea of saving up money to hand to your kids for college. That's silly. If they know they have to pay off loans, they will not screw around in college.



[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking as a kid whose parents pay for my college, I honestly don't know a single person whose parents don't pay for their education. They also all work very hard in school myself included, so I'm not really sure who you're talking about, but it's not anyone I know.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
wealthy

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people aren't wealthy, but that doesn't mean they can't support a family.
I think you could've chosen a far better word or phrase to make your point.


justbob:
[ QUOTE ]
you simply cannot afford to raise a healthy, mentally stable family if you do not have boatloads of cash. PERIOD!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely absurd. PERIOD!

Also, there is much more to life than money. I don't feel sorry for anyone who doesn't understand that.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I never agreed with was the idea of saving up money to hand to your kids for college. That's silly. If they know they have to pay off loans, they will not screw around in college.



[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking as a kid whose parents pay for my college, I honestly don't know a single person whose parents don't pay for their education. They also all work very hard in school myself included, so I'm not really sure who you're talking about, but it's not anyone I know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you go to Yale?

Alot of kids parents dont pay their way.

[STLantny]

I went through 12 years of private education, 5k/yr grade school, 12k/yr high school. Going into high school, my parents told me that they would pay for my high school no matter what, and would happily pay for my college too. Provided that I do my best, and get good grades in high school, I didnt, and now I pay for my mistake. But I will do the same with my kids.
And if you think most parents pay for thier kids education, you are sheltered or something, because there is no way that is true.

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is sad on many levels.

None of you should spawn.

Here's a hint:

Being a parent is about making sacrafices which afford your children opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you speaking from experience? Do you regret having spawn?

I would not want to have any kids (if I were to ever get married) because I wouldn't want my wife to become a fat sack. Plus, her attention would go mostly to the kids. Superficial but true.

Edited to add: Plus, her boobies would be more likely to sag after breastfeeding. Why do people have kids again?

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
And if you think most parents pay for thier kids education, you are sheltered or something, because there is no way that is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize not all parents pay for their kids education, but I don't agree that paying for your kid's education will cause them to slack off. That thought wouldn't even cross my mind.

[STLantny]

It does. If my parents threatened at the time, to make me go to a public school, or get better grades, I would have gotten straight A's. Unfortunetly, as a stupid high school kid I didnt have the foresight to realize the consequences of my fuckups in HS.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, there is much more to life than money.


[/ QUOTE ]
see how long you last doing any of these things without it.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
It does. If my parents threatened at the time, to make me go to a public school, or get better grades, I would have gotten straight A's. Unfortunetly, as a stupid high school kid I didnt have the foresight to realize the consequences of my fuckups in HS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose it depends on the person. I really was responding to the initial poster who said it is silly to pay for your kid's education bc they won't slack off if you make the kid pay.

Take my sister for example, she graduates from HS next year. She initially told my parents she didn't want to go to college, but my parents insisted that she go. She has since changed her mind, but if my parents weren't paying then there is no way she would go. Obviously there is no way parents would even consider not paying since they want her in school.

I think it really depends on the person, and to say that no parents should pay for their kid's schooling is kind of foolish.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, there is much more to life than money.


[/ QUOTE ]
see how long you last doing any of these things without it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really doesn't prove your point at all. I never said money wasn't very important. It's just clearly not the only thing. It's certainly not the most important 'thing' either.

In my opinion, those who think otherwise should go back to 1985.

[vulturesrow]

I find this thread very sad. I have 3 kids and I am by no means wealthy but I make enough to live comfortably enough. I cant just pop into the store and buy whatever, whenever, but who cares? For free I can go fly kites, swim, color, and play boardgames with my kids.

[Voltron87]

also if you are wealthy but cant give time for your kids you shouldnt have them. if youre some big swinging dick ceo or lawyer who works too much having a kid is a bad idea, just like poor parents who cant provide financially.

[Daliman]

and they are worth every penny....

I'm actually on both sides of this, sorta.

I grew up pretty poor, been pretty poor til i married a woman who made 2x as much as me, then she lost her job when 7 months pregnant while I was making 45k a year working 70+ hours a week. Not sure if it was the pressure or what, but I started kicking butt in poker, found how consistantly beatable SNG's are, and she got an even better job, and we have a wonderful, beautiful son, and a daughter on the way. Every day I think about how lucky I am, even when I get bad beat to death. Lots have it way worse than I do, and even than I did, but it's all worth it.



http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/2396/danyon420050097uh.jpg

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I find this thread very sad. I have 3 kids and I am by no means wealthy but I make enough to live comfortably enough. I cant just pop into the store and buy whatever, whenever, but who cares? For free I can go fly kites, swim, color, and play boardgames with my kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

I think the OP has a point, but it's clouded by the fact that he used the word 'wealthy'.

People who can't support children shouldn't have them, but that's completely different than saying people who aren't wealthy shouldn't produce offspring.

[ChipWrecked]

I would like to think I'm guy number 2. Hopefully not a douche too much but married at 38.

One thing I didn't expect was how hard the old life would die. I liked being single.

So now after the rough start, things are great. I'm sure we'll stay together. It was touch and go at the beginning though.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, there is much more to life than money.


[/ QUOTE ]
see how long you last doing any of these things without it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really doesn't prove your point at all. I never said money wasn't very important. It's just clearly not the only thing. It's certainly not the most important 'thing' either.

In my opinion, those who think otherwise should go back to 1985.

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously i was exadurating when i said the only thing. but just by a little. money is the basis for everything is the point i'm trying to make. money IS the most important thing. money is the reason why people spend 40+ hours a week doing [censored] they hate. without money you cannot eat, cannot pay rent, cannot get married. you cannot do anything worth while without money. MONEY = FREEDOM = A LIFE WORTH LIVING.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I find this thread very sad. I have 3 kids and I am by no means wealthy but I make enough to live comfortably enough. I cant just pop into the store and buy whatever, whenever, but who cares? For free I can go fly kites, swim, color, and play boardgames with my kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt about material possessions. its about freedom.

if you are single. you dont need to be wealthy.

married/kids = YOU NEED MONEY....

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find this thread very sad. I have 3 kids and I am by no means wealthy but I make enough to live comfortably enough. I cant just pop into the store and buy whatever, whenever, but who cares? For free I can go fly kites, swim, color, and play boardgames with my kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt about material possessions. its about freedom.

if you are single. you dont need to be wealthy.

married/kids = YOU NEED MONEY....

[/ QUOTE ]


Siggghhhh, this is getting sad.

Sorry, but your freedom is one of those things you sacrafice for your children

No matter how much money you have, it is still wrong to dump your kids with a sitter and go club'in on a school night.

Better advice on parenting can be found from Chris Rock in 'Bigger and Blacker' then in this thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but your freedom is one of those things you sacrafice for your children

[/ QUOTE ]

i think he means freedom to do as you please. this should include spending time with your kids, rather than slugging it out at some piece of [censored] job 60 hours a week just to avoid eviction.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but your freedom is one of those things you sacrafice for your children

[/ QUOTE ]

i think he means freedom to do as you please. this should include spending time with your kids, rather than slugging it out at some piece of [censored] job 60 hours a week just to avoid eviction.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

Parents make a lot of assumptions. They assume that they will have a nice healthy child who when he/she turns 18 will be able to provide for themselves. What happens if your kid is born with disability ? Yeah, you're kid is double [censored] because you are an idiot.

[AngryCola]

So, you still contend that one should actually be wealthy to have children?
If so, I think you are, at best, extremely misguided.

Have you defined what you consider to be wealthy? I may have missed it. Also, how many children are we talking about? There is a difference.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find this thread very sad. I have 3 kids and I am by no means wealthy but I make enough to live comfortably enough. I cant just pop into the store and buy whatever, whenever, but who cares? For free I can go fly kites, swim, color, and play boardgames with my kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt about material possessions. its about freedom.

if you are single. you dont need to be wealthy.

married/kids = YOU NEED MONEY....

[/ QUOTE ]


Siggghhhh, this is getting sad.

Sorry, but your freedom is one of those things you sacrafice for your children

No matter how much money you have, it is still wrong to dump your kids with a sitter and go club'in on a school night.

Better advice on parenting can be found from Chris Rock in 'Bigger and Blacker' then in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you have kids. Do you think it's wrong to have one Date Night with your wife per week? Do you think it's wrong to have one week of vacation with your wife per year? This is what I'm talking about -- not leaving your young children to flit off and have fun whenever the hell you please, but having enough money so that you still have the freedom to be adults from time to time.

I'm not a parent myself, but many of my closest friends are. I find most of them have forgotten how to be adults. They've been reduced to sick, goofy photocopies of their former selves. And the reason why is because between working and raising their kids, they have no free time/spare money to do anything for themselves, by themselves. This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle, bad spouses to each other, and worse parents to their kids than they would be if they maintained their own identities.

That's my point. I disagree with OP that you need to be "wealthy" to have kids (I think wealthy was probably just a poor choice of words). But I do agree that you need to have some real money, to where you're not busting ass just to make ends meet, spending every SECOND of spare time assuaging your guilt over not having anything nice to give your kids, and losing yourself in the process.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not want to have any kids (if I were to ever get married) because I wouldn't want my wife to become a fat sack. Plus, her attention would go mostly to the kids. Superficial but true.

Edited to add: Plus, her boobies would be more likely to sag after breastfeeding. Why do people have kids again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of the possibilities if your family tree had made this decision just one generation earlier.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
So, you still contend that one should actually be wealthy to have children?
If so, I think you are, at best, extremely misguided.

Have you defined what you consider to be wealthy? I may have missed it. Also, how many children are we talking about? There is a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

enough money to pick the family up and spend the spring in france if i feel like it.

[kurosh]

kane i think you live in your own little bubble world... the vast majority of people are stupid and poor. by your standards, i'd say only maybe 10% of people could have kids. i mean, yeah, it sucks for the kids but what are you going to do? that's how society is set up.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find this thread very sad. I have 3 kids and I am by no means wealthy but I make enough to live comfortably enough. I cant just pop into the store and buy whatever, whenever, but who cares? For free I can go fly kites, swim, color, and play boardgames with my kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt about material possessions. its about freedom.

if you are single. you dont need to be wealthy.

married/kids = YOU NEED MONEY....

[/ QUOTE ]


Siggghhhh, this is getting sad.

Sorry, but your freedom is one of those things you sacrafice for your children

No matter how much money you have, it is still wrong to dump your kids with a sitter and go club'in on a school night.

Better advice on parenting can be found from Chris Rock in 'Bigger and Blacker' then in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you have kids. Do you think it's wrong to have one Date Night with your wife per week? Do you think it's wrong to have one week of vacation with your wife per year? This is what I'm talking about -- not leaving your young children to flit off and have fun whenever the hell you please, but having enough money so that you still have the freedom to be adults from time to time.

I'm not a parent myself, but many of my closest friends are. I find most of them have forgotten how to be adults. They've been reduced to sick, goofy photocopies of their former selves. And the reason why is because between working and raising their kids, they have no free time/spare money to do anything for themselves, by themselves. This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle, bad spouses to each other, and worse parents to their kids than they would be if they maintained their own identities.

That's my point. I disagree with OP that you need to be "wealthy" to have kids (I think wealthy was probably just a poor choice of words). But I do agree that you need to have some real money, to where you're not busting ass just to make ends meet, spending every SECOND of spare time assuaging your guilt over not having anything nice to give your kids, and losing yourself in the process.

[/ QUOTE ]

sammy, you nailed it.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]


enough money to pick the family up and spend the spring in france if i feel like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm now changing my view. Misguided wasn't the right word.

You live in a completely different universe and have probably had very little contact with Earth in quite some time. We would send a search party, but honestly... we can't afford it.

[webmonarch]

[ QUOTE ]
So now after the rough start, things are great. I'm sure we'll stay together. It was touch and go at the beginning though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets hear more about this. How, why? Examples? I'm seriously interested in hearing about the experience.

[ QUOTE ]
i mean, yeah, it sucks for the kids but what are you going to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't have kids if you're poor!

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO there are two types of guys:
Guy number 1:
Guy is kind of douche baggish, but not that bad. He is just there.
Guy gets a girl, and sings the praises of how its great to have a gf/kids/etc. Of course he is pussywhipped.
Guy gets married too early.
Guy ends up being unhappy after awhile.
Guy gets divorced.

Guy number 2.
Guy is not a douche bag.
Guy is fun, outgoing, has lots of friends.
Guy sleeps with a bunch of chicks, but doesnt stick to one.
Guy ends up getting married later in life 30-40.
Guy lives to be 90 with his wife.

This is from my experience from my friends, and family that I have noticed. It just seems that all the 19-23 year olds who sing the praises of being in a relationship, and make sure you know about it are the ones that [censored] up later in life. Dont be that guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So this is a complete either/or? To not be a douche, you need to be fun, outgoing, and have lots of friends? I'm funny, but I don't arrange social gatherings & [censored]; that's somebody else's job. I need to be alone for at least 4-6 hours a day. Does that auto-paint me with the douche brush?

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
i have alot of respect for my parent and other people who raised kids on meager salaries.

but i also think its insane.

if you are rich, then you can have kids and still have freedom. you dont have to be a slave. your wife can pile a bunch of [censored] in a shopping cart and you dont have to think much about it. hell, i dont even know how anyone can have a wife without being rich when you consider how apt they are at burning money, and how many added expenses come along with a girl.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you consider rich?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]

What do you consider rich?

[/ QUOTE ]

Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3182999&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1)

[sexdrugsmoney]

Either give your kids the best start in life or don't have kids.

If you do, you are selfish.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Either give your kids the best start in life or don't have kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not even sure what this means. Please define "best start".

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What do you consider rich?

[/ QUOTE ]

Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3182999&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

That is too vague. I could do that (take a trip to Europe and live off my savings for four months) and I certainly am not rich.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What do you consider rich?

[/ QUOTE ]

Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3182999&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

1 million net worth/not including house.

im not saying that i want to go to france and stay in the best hotel and my wife will go shopping and drop 30K.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not even sure what this means. Please define "best start".

[/ QUOTE ]

finacial freedom to not only do as they please, but to be able to give 100% of their focus to any thing they decide to do in life, without having to grind out a measily paycheck at McDicks because their poor lazy selfish ass father wouldn't put on a jimmy.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not even sure what this means. Please define "best start".

[/ QUOTE ]

finacial freedom to not only do as they please, but to be able to give 100% of their focus to any thing they decide to do in life, without having to grind out a measily paycheck at McDicks because their poor lazy selfish ass father wouldn't put on a jimmy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, there's no middle ground here? Why are you talking about McDonalds? Those people are not only far from wealthy, they are poor.

"100% of their focus" is another extreme. Not many people can live up to all these requirements of yours, and it's not because they are bad parents. It's simply not reality.

I contend that making a comfortable middle class living is enough income to be a great parent, raise quality children, and live a relatively happy life. That's pretty much all I had left to say about this issue. If anyone disagrees with me, that's fine. However, they are wrong. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What do you consider rich?

[/ QUOTE ]

Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3182999&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

1 million net worth/not including house.

im not saying that i want to go to france and stay in the best hotel and my wife will go shopping and drop 30K.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

While this would be a huge boon for population control, it is impractical, no? Why do you think you need so much money to raise kids? My two kids don't want for anything, both go to private school (because the public schools here are horrible), and get still plenty of attention from their parents.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]

i have alot of respect for my parent and other people who raised kids on meager salaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good.

[ QUOTE ]
but i also think its insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't choose insane to be the word, more so difficult and more challenging would be better.

[ QUOTE ]
i dont even know how anyone can have a wife without being rich when you consider how apt they are at burning money, and how many added expenses come along with a girl.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that a marriage cannot exist without the wife being the major breadwinner and the husband as a stay at home father who earns substantially less than the wife? You are stating the husband won't burn money and you are stating that a son won't have any heavy lavish expenses that a girl would?

Let me ask you, what do you think makes a good parent and what should a good parent ultimately do bring forth a good child?

Lawrence

I want to beat the hell out of my Dad so badly.

[fnord_too]

I bascially agree with you but I think you may be setting the bar a bit high. I think it is sufficient to have a decent income, good long term income prospects (such as good employability or a viable long term revenue stream), and good financial sense.

True story: When I was 5 or 6 I decided I wasn't getting married until I was 35, 30 if I had become well off by then, for basically the reasons you describe. I didn't get married until I was 31.

Waiting is a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand you are more mature, better off financially (usually), and a lot wiser. On the other hand you are going to have less time with your children because you are that much closer to death (though one could argue that you can spend more quality time with them, and are less likely to screw things up). Also, there is something to be said by for having all your children independant (relatively) by the time you are 50 or so.

Clearly, thinking about this stuff before making life changing decisions is a good idea that a lot of people never have.

[vulturesrow]

I totally agree its not about material possessions. And I agree you need money, I dont agree that you need to be wealthy. As has been pointed out, your desires become secondary once you have a kid, no matter how much money you have. Please dont misinterpret that to mean you should kowtwo to your kid's every whim. But you need always put them ahead of you. Thats part of being a parent and those that cant/wont accept that definitely dont need to be having children.

[Paluka]

My wife is pregnant, and I really have no intention of my own life ending and it becoming all about my kid. I'm lucky enough to be starting off with a decent amount of money, though.

[WDC]

It's all about choices. I choose to have kids. I also choose to take job for about 1/2 or possibly even 1/3 of what I could be making if I were willing to put in 60-70 hours a week. I work 40. I go home every night. I coach soccer baseball and basketball. I have a good life. It's comfortable but I am not rich. I wouldn't trade it for money.

[WDC]

Sorry that your married friends can't gop out drinking with you anymore. It's possible that they have evolved into adults. It's not a bad thing.

BTW my wife and I always take a week to ourselves every year and also a week alone every once in a while.

[WDC]

I would hate to think of a world where only the rich were allowed to reproduce. More George Bushs and Paris Hiltons is not what this world needs.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry that your married friends can't gop out drinking with you anymore. It's possible that they have evolved into adults. It's not a bad thing.

BTW my wife and I always take a week to ourselves every year and also a week alone every once in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you being a dick to him, while also agreeing w/ him?

[BusterStacks]

my rule of thumb was this:

if you can't take your kids to disneyland without worry, don't have them.

I still stand by it. Even if it's not disneyland, this measure of wealth should ensure that your children never have to go without the things that are very important to young children: fitting in with their friends.

[banditbdl]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I never agreed with was the idea of saving up money to hand to your kids for college. That's silly. If they know they have to pay off loans, they will not screw around in college.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind that if your kid wants to go to private school the loans will be large enough that no one will give the loans to your kid alone. You'll be expected to co-sign as a parent and need enough net worth via your mortgage, savings, etc. to back it up even if you're not actually paying for the kids schooling.

[ThisHo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll say it again...

If you are not willing to be a slave to your children...Do not have any.

Being a slave to your children isn't about money.

I'm too pissed and tired to explain life to you right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

ThinMan is dead on the money here. Despite the fact that he is a jackass most of the time, his point here is absolutely 100% correct.

OP, I think, places a little too much emphasis on wealth.

~ThisHo

[CCass]

This may be the worst thread I have ever read in OOT. Not everything in life is about the $. I pity people who make every decision in life based on money.

Coaching my children in sports, combing my daughters hair, taking my son to a Titans game - I cant put a monetary value on any of these things. They are truly priceless. My life (and my wife's) does revolve around my children, and I wouldn't have it any other way. That doesn't mean that my children are "in charge", they don't decide where we eat, they do obey their parents.

We are middle class, and we do fine with 3 kids. It is all about choices. We don't drive brand new vehicles, we don't live in a 4,000 square foot home in the "richest" neighborhood. We don't go to Disneyland every year. Kids don't want to go to Disneyland, they want to spend time with their parents.

As for all of this "you gotta be rich" to have kids bullshit, our kids have everything they need and then some, and we live in a nice house that we will soon own (no mortgage). Our kids are involved in several extracurricular activities. And my wife and I will probably be able to retire in our early to mid 50's. You don't have to make a ton of money, you just have to be smart with what you have.

The vast majority of you guys need to grow up.

[MaxPower]

Freedom gets old after a while. You are probably pretty young and won't believe this.

[ThisHo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a parent myself, but many of my closest friends are. I find most of them have forgotten how to be adults. They've been reduced to sick, goofy photocopies of their former selves. And the reason why is because between working and raising their kids, they have no free time/spare money to do anything for themselves, by themselves. This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle, bad spouses to each other, and worse parents to their kids than they would be if they maintained their own identities.

[/ QUOTE ]


Bolded above is like saying "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV." I'm glad that you at least point out that you don't. Everyone posting in this thread should post age/maritalstatus/#kids for clarification of viewpoints. I don't think it would shock anyone to see the "must have $$$$ coming out my ass" group is <25 / single / no kids and the "impoverished won't cut it, but reasonable income is fine as long as you spend time with Johnny/Susie" group is >25 (probably >30) / married / kid(s).

Until you have a kid you don't understand how much time and effort it really takes to raise one. My wife left a well paying full time job after she had our girl and is working part time from home + Sundays so that 1 of us is home with our little girl. Its been a HUGE adjustment. HUGE. We used to eat out 2 to 4 times per week ($50+ each time). We now do it maybe twice a month. She used to pick up whatever she wanted when she was out shopping with her mom/girlfriends. We now discuss if there's $$$ for her to pick up a new blouse before she goes. I used to play at a home game EVERY week and at the club almost every week. Now (1yr later) I'm just getting back to making it to the home game most weeks and I make it to the club about 1/mo. WE ARE HAPPIER THAN WE HAVE EVER BEEN!

Sacrifice! Sacrifice! Sacrifice!

The happiest moment of my day is when I walk in the door from my suck-ass job look up the stairs and my lil' girl is looking down the stairs with a HUGE smile on her face and my wife is right behind her with a big smile as well. The hug and kiss from both of them makes my day. You just can't explain it until you have it.

Specific points raised in this thread:

*1Mil net worth not including house? Are you f-ing kidding me? Go to France in the Spring for 3 weeks because I feel like it? Lets assume you have the $$$ to do that, your kids are in school so you still can't do it. Seriously, your P*ker success has warped your sense of monetary reality for 95% of the worlds population. You're living on another planet.

*Being a slave to your kids doesn't mean you spoil them. It means you are willing to lay down your life for them. It means that you love them more than you love yourself and you will do everything you can to give them the best life possible.

*paying for college or not paying for college is not the determining factor in whether or not a kid will screw around and blow it at college. Pay/NotPay may amplify that decision, but its not going to be the deal breaker. How they were raised, values instilled in them, their desire to be at college, and others determine if they make it or not.

*one night a week and one week/year isn't unreasonable, but it doesn't necessarily take a ton of money. Sitters aren't that expensive and you can find cheap things to do at night.

*SammyKid : ask your friends that have kids if they are happy. Ask them if they would trade their kids for the freedom to do whatever/whenever. You're likely to get a "yes we're happy, no we wouldn't trade" answer. Clearly there are some people that shouldn't have had kids that wish they didn't, but $$$ isn't the reason for this. If they aren't good spouses to one another the kid isn't the reason for it. They probably weren't good spouses before the kid but its MUCH easier to hide that when you have all the $$$ and free time that DINKs (DoubleIncomeNoKids) have. You can hide a bad marriage when you are going out with friends together or seperate and flying away for vacations whenever and doing whatever you want. But when one of you has changed 10 diapers already that day and the other just got home from 10hours of work and you need to decide who is going to change the poopy diaper that just got made, that's when you find out how good your marriage is.

Kids aren't for everyone. If you don't want to sacrifice, don't have kids. If you think they are too expensive, then no matter how much you make, they are - don't have them. I'd much prefer that none of you douchebags that think $$$ is the only thing never have any kids because I don't want my daughter meeting any of your kids.

~ThisHo

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a parent myself, but many of my closest friends are. I find most of them have forgotten how to be adults. They've been reduced to sick, goofy photocopies of their former selves. And the reason why is because between working and raising their kids, they have no free time/spare money to do anything for themselves, by themselves. This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle, bad spouses to each other, and worse parents to their kids than they would be if they maintained their own identities.

[/ QUOTE ]


Bolded above is like saying "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV." I'm glad that you at least point out that you don't.

(edited for space)

Kids aren't for everyone. If you don't want to sacrifice, don't have kids. If you think they are too expensive, then no matter how much you make, they are - don't have them. I'd much prefer that none of you douchebags that think $$$ is the only thing never have any kids because I don't want my daughter meeting any of your kids.

~ThisHo

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well said.

The head-shaker for me was the comment "This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle"

lol, I knew it was a lost cause at that point and went to bed shortly after...

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I find this thread very sad. I have 3 kids and I am by no means wealthy but I make enough to live comfortably enough. I cant just pop into the store and buy whatever, whenever, but who cares? For free I can go fly kites, swim, color, and play boardgames with my kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice.

However, like another poster said, always making your kids feel like a burden is lame, which is what some parents do. They make you feel bad that they have to buy you clothes.

[ThisHo]

[ QUOTE ]
Very well said.

The head-shaker for me was the comment "This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle"

lol, I knew it was a lost cause at that point and went to bed shortly after...

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, the "my friends had a kid and now they never hang out with us" argument for not having kids is pretty lame. I don't play hide and seek with the kids I knew when I was 8 anymore either, I must be a shitty friend.

All that said ... I hate the fact that I agree with a Giants fan! =)

~ThisHo

[fnord_too]

I think you fit his description of wealthy. KKF chose his words poorly in the OP I think. It seems to me by wealthy he meant not financially distressed and with some discretionary income and security.

You said
[ QUOTE ]
Coaching my children in sports, combing my daughters hair, taking my son to a Titans game - I cant put a monetary value on any of these things. They are truly priceless.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are things a lot of people cannot do because they are busy trying to make end's meat. As to taking your son to a Titans game, what does that run all told? A couple of hundred bucks? That is a fortune to some families.

I would argue that one of the reason you can do all these things AND get enjoyment from them is that you are not worrying about things like making rent, your car being reposessed, scraping up a couple of hundred dollars for that emergency, going bankrupt because you needed medical attention and didn't have insurance, etc. Money problems are a huge sourse of marital spats and divorce. I don't think it is a bad idea to not want to have children until you know you are at a place where you can adequately provide for them.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
to a Titans game

[/ QUOTE ]

As a Steelers fan, I am able to help you out with the value (or lack thereof) on this part...

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very well said.

The head-shaker for me was the comment "This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle"

lol, I knew it was a lost cause at that point and went to bed shortly after...

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, the "my friends had a kid and now they never hang out with us" argument for not having kids is pretty lame. I don't play hide and seek with the kids I knew when I was 8 anymore either, I must be a shitty friend.

All that said ... I hate the fact that I agree with a Giants fan! =)

~ThisHo

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a shitty friend because of this, even though you may not realize it. But its your choice and your priorities, you picked your kids in front of your friends, as most people do. I am 23, most of my friends are 25-28, they are all getting married and having kids, about 2 years ago, if one of them asked me for a favor, Id drop whatver I was doing and help them out. Now I would tell them to go fukc themselves. I dont speak to them anymore because they are all dumbass working stiffs, that were too broke to get married in the first place, so now they struggle for every dollar, and dont have time to go out. And if I do get a rare call, its usually to invite me to play boardgames, ya thats what I want to do on a friday night, play boardgames. From what Ive gleamed, its all about being pussywhipped and a change of priority to most people. Stupidity.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very well said.

The head-shaker for me was the comment "This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle"

lol, I knew it was a lost cause at that point and went to bed shortly after...

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, the "my friends had a kid and now they never hang out with us" argument for not having kids is pretty lame. I don't play hide and seek with the kids I knew when I was 8 anymore either, I must be a shitty friend.

All that said ... I hate the fact that I agree with a Giants fan! =)

~ThisHo

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a shitty friend because of this, even though you may not realize it. But its your choice and your priorities, you picked your kids in front of your friends, as most people do. I am 23, most of my friends are 25-28, they are all getting married and having kids, about 2 years ago, if one of them asked me for a favor, Id drop whatver I was doing and help them out. Now I would tell them to go fukc themselves. I dont speak to them anymore because they are all dumbass working stiffs, that were too broke to get married in the first place, so now they struggle for every dollar, and dont have time to go out. And if I do get a rare call, its usually to invite me to play boardgames, ya thats what I want to do on a friday night, play boardgames. From what Ive gleamed, its all about being pussywhipped and a change of priority to most people. Stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're a jackass. You're seriously begrudging your friends having kids? I can understand being a bit disappointed that they can't go out with you all the time now, but come on.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From what Ive gleamed, its all about being pussywhipped and a change of priority to most people. Stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're a jackass. You're seriously begrudging your friends having kids? I can understand being a bit disappointed that they can't go out with you all the time now, but come on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he forgot to press enter a couple times before signing his name at the end...

[hoyaboy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very well said.

The head-shaker for me was the comment "This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle"

lol, I knew it was a lost cause at that point and went to bed shortly after...

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, the "my friends had a kid and now they never hang out with us" argument for not having kids is pretty lame. I don't play hide and seek with the kids I knew when I was 8 anymore either, I must be a shitty friend.

All that said ... I hate the fact that I agree with a Giants fan! =)

~ThisHo

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a shitty friend because of this, even though you may not realize it. But its your choice and your priorities, you picked your kids in front of your friends, as most people do. I am 23, most of my friends are 25-28, they are all getting married and having kids, about 2 years ago, if one of them asked me for a favor, Id drop whatver I was doing and help them out. Now I would tell them to go fukc themselves. I dont speak to them anymore because they are all dumbass working stiffs, that were too broke to get married in the first place, so now they struggle for every dollar, and dont have time to go out. And if I do get a rare call, its usually to invite me to play boardgames, ya thats what I want to do on a friday night, play boardgames. From what Ive gleamed, its all about being pussywhipped and a change of priority to most people. Stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell is wrong with you?

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very well said.

The head-shaker for me was the comment "This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle"

lol, I knew it was a lost cause at that point and went to bed shortly after...

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, the "my friends had a kid and now they never hang out with us" argument for not having kids is pretty lame. I don't play hide and seek with the kids I knew when I was 8 anymore either, I must be a shitty friend.

All that said ... I hate the fact that I agree with a Giants fan! =)

~ThisHo

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a shitty friend because of this, even though you may not realize it. But its your choice and your priorities, you picked your kids in front of your friends, as most people do. I am 23, most of my friends are 25-28, they are all getting married and having kids, about 2 years ago, if one of them asked me for a favor, Id drop whatver I was doing and help them out. Now I would tell them to go fukc themselves. I dont speak to them anymore because they are all dumbass working stiffs, that were too broke to get married in the first place, so now they struggle for every dollar, and dont have time to go out. And if I do get a rare call, its usually to invite me to play boardgames, ya thats what I want to do on a friday night, play boardgames. From what Ive gleamed, its all about being pussywhipped and a change of priority to most people. Stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're a jackass. You're seriously begrudging your friends having kids? I can understand being a bit disappointed that they can't go out with you all the time now, but come on.

[/ QUOTE ]

[zoomOut]

[ QUOTE ]
However, like another poster said, always making your kids feel like a burden is lame, which is what some parents do. They make you feel bad that they have to buy you clothes.

[/ QUOTE ]


I am as guilty of this as anybody. I am going to try harder not to be such a grouch with my kids as I can see from reading these posts that it does not go over well. It's funny but when you first have children (babies are cute!) you don't think that you will ever be a bad parent and you certainly can't imagine that you will think of your kids as a "burden". Flash forward 18 years and you can't believe how bad your attitude can get. You sometimes actually do feel like you are a shell of the person you once were. You get beaten down. (I'm not saying I felt like this when my kids were little.)

Certainly it is not the kid's fault. Life takes many unexpected turns. I find I'm not as great as I thought I was which is a very hard pill to swallow. Reading these posts has been very enlightening.

On a side note, I really have no animosity or problem with the posters who have been pretty critical of their friends with children. I can see the humor in it.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
also if you are wealthy but cant give time for your kids you shouldnt have them. if youre some big swinging dick ceo or lawyer who works too much having a kid is a bad idea, just like poor parents who cant provide financially.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you can extend this to say that if you aren't willing to commit 100% to your kids,then you shouldn't have any. This doesn't mean you should spoil them or give in to their every whim. It does mean that you should do everything in your power to ensure that they, when they become adults, are well adjusted, socially responsible contributing members of society. It means that they should know, first hand, unconditional love as well as the consequences of their actions.

[ThisHo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very well said.

The head-shaker for me was the comment "This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle"

lol, I knew it was a lost cause at that point and went to bed shortly after...

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, the "my friends had a kid and now they never hang out with us" argument for not having kids is pretty lame. I don't play hide and seek with the kids I knew when I was 8 anymore either, I must be a shitty friend.

All that said ... I hate the fact that I agree with a Giants fan! =)

~ThisHo

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a shitty friend because of this, even though you may not realize it. But its your choice and your priorities, you picked your kids in front of your friends, as most people do. I am 23, most of my friends are 25-28, they are all getting married and having kids, about 2 years ago, if one of them asked me for a favor, Id drop whatver I was doing and help them out. Now I would tell them to go fukc themselves. I dont speak to them anymore because they are all dumbass working stiffs, that were too broke to get married in the first place, so now they struggle for every dollar, and dont have time to go out. And if I do get a rare call, its usually to invite me to play boardgames, ya thats what I want to do on a friday night, play boardgames. From what Ive gleamed, its all about being pussywhipped and a change of priority to most people. Stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please respond to this in 10 years when you have found the right woman and have a kid or two. I assure you that you will feel differently.

I'm quite certain that I don't want you as a friend if your reason for being willing to assist a friend in need is based on how often you see them. A FRIEND helps another friend out simply because the friend needs help, not as a reward for good behavior.
If parents don't put kids in front of friends on the priority list then the kids get [censored] no matter how much $$$ the parents have.
What do you want to do on Friday night? Get shitfaced and chase tail in a club? Sorry, but being married means you no longer have to chase tail in the clubs and hope to get enough booz down its throat so you can take it home. Being married means that you finally caught THE tail and its now right there for you in the comforts of your own home and it costs a hell of a lot less to get it into bed. If playing board games with your friends isn't cool enough for you then go do your thing, but don't be a jackass because your friends have moved to a different stage of life. Like I said, I don't play hide & seek with the kids that used to live on my block anymore. Its part of life.

Also, don't confuse "totally in love with my wife and family" with "pussywhipped." They are two totally different things, which you will eventually learn.

I haven't abandoned my friends. I still see them and talk to them from time to time, but I don't go out with them every week and they are not the priority that they once were. If any of them called and needed a favor I'd be happy to drop what I was doing and help them out if I possible could, no matter how long its been since we talked.

Not sure why I'm bothering, you're young and you won't hear what I'm saying. Just check back on this in a few years.

~ThisHo

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I find this thread very sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

thin man
ccass
maxpower
AngryCola
Daliman
vulturesrow
and a few others have their head on straight.

The rest of you should stop posting about life until you've lived life.

[STLantny]

I may have sounded harsh, but I really dont give a [censored]. I tottally understand putting your family in front of friends, I have no problem with that. But my particular friends, do not do anything, ever. They dont go out, ever, etc. And the only time I receive a call (I stopped calling them a long time ago), is when they need help with something, like sodding their lawn, or painting or something like that. I could tottally understand, if they called maybe once every month, just to see how [censored] is going etc, but they stopped that the second they got married. And these were really godd friends, that I rented a house with for 2 years etc. I just figured thats how everyone reacted when they got pusswhipped.
And you douche bags can call me a selfish jackass all you want, but Im not the one who decided to cut all ties to the outside world, because I have to focus on a relationship. I am not asking to go out and chase tail 5 nights a week, but hell, at least make 1 night a month to go out to a bar or a ball game etc.

BTW, most of my friends dont have kids, they just got married.

[rohjoh]

[ QUOTE ]
i have alot of respect for my parent and other people who raised kids on meager salaries.

but i also think its insane.

if you are rich, then you can have kids and still have freedom. you dont have to be a slave. your wife can pile a bunch of [censored] in a shopping cart and you dont have to think much about it. hell, i dont even know how anyone can have a wife without being rich when you consider how apt they are at burning money, and how many added expenses come along with a girl.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the biggest factors in deciding to have children for me, was age. I wanted to be a young dad, and wanted to be the dad that doesn't drop his kids off at the beach or skatepark, but the dad that is dropping into the halfpipe along side my son! I am now 35, and took my sons to Costa Rica this summer to go surfing. We have a half pipe in our driveway, and I am taking my son to Green Day next month. I was broke when I had my first of 4 children, but the difference between you and me is that I had 100% confidence in my ability to provide a good life for my children. The number one factor that drove me to be successful in business, was my children. I make 500% more money than I would if I were not married with children. My wife and I have a balance between children, and our own lives. We are not slaves to our children. Your priorities change with children, yes, but they are not the only factor in your life.

If I had waited until I had enough money to have children, I would still be waiting and making 35K per year in a xxxxxxx job. My advise to you is do not have kids.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
I may have sounded harsh, but I really dont give a [censored]. I tottally understand putting your family in front of friends, I have no problem with that. But my particular friends, do not do anything, ever. They dont go out, ever, etc. And the only time I receive a call (I stopped calling them a long time ago), is when they need help with something, like sodding their lawn, or painting or something like that. I could tottally understand, if they called maybe once every month, just to see how [censored] is going etc, but they stopped that the second they got married. And these were really godd friends, that I rented a house with for 2 years etc. I just figured thats how everyone reacted when they got pusswhipped.
And you douche bags can call me a selfish jackass all you want, but Im not the one who decided to cut all ties to the outside world, because I have to focus on a relationship. I am not asking to go out and chase tail 5 nights a week, but hell, at least make 1 night a month to go out to a bar or a ball game etc.

BTW, most of my friends dont have kids, they just got married.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm. Newlyweds. What could they be doing without a fifth wheel?

We're not exactly talking rocket science here.

[CCass]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you fit his description of wealthy. KKF chose his words poorly in the OP I think. It seems to me by wealthy he meant not financially distressed and with some discretionary income and security.

You said
[ QUOTE ]
Coaching my children in sports, combing my daughters hair, taking my son to a Titans game - I cant put a monetary value on any of these things. They are truly priceless.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are things a lot of people cannot do because they are busy trying to make end's meat. As to taking your son to a Titans game, what does that run all told? A couple of hundred bucks? That is a fortune to some families.

I would argue that one of the reason you can do all these things AND get enjoyment from them is that you are not worrying about things like making rent, your car being reposessed, scraping up a couple of hundred dollars for that emergency, going bankrupt because you needed medical attention and didn't have insurance, etc. Money problems are a huge sourse of marital spats and divorce. I don't think it is a bad idea to not want to have children until you know you are at a place where you can adequately provide for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with most everything you said. I didn't explain this very well in my first post, so I will try again.

I believe that my wife and I have the money to do the things I listed (and others) because of decisions we have made in life. We don't live in an expensive neighborhood. We don't drive expensive cars (our 2 vehicles are paid for, and both have greater than 150K miles on them). We both went to college so we could get decent paying jobs. I chose a job with good insurance benefits to help cover the "emergencies" you mentioned.

I definitely agree with you that money can be a huge problem in a marriage, so I believe that you must manage your money, and not let it manage you.

Lastly, you asked about the cost of the Titans tickets. I have season tickets that cost $1K this year. That is one of the things that I do for myself. But I wouldn't do it if it took food off the table for my children.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a parent myself, but many of my closest friends are. I find most of them have forgotten how to be adults. They've been reduced to sick, goofy photocopies of their former selves. And the reason why is because between working and raising their kids, they have no free time/spare money to do anything for themselves, by themselves. This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle, bad spouses to each other, and worse parents to their kids than they would be if they maintained their own identities.

[/ QUOTE ]


Bolded above is like saying "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV."

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's really not. I don't have kids, but that doesn't mean I don't have an appropriate appreciation for what it's like to have kids, especially when I've been involved in many aspects of helping to raise a friend's child. Your argument is like saying, "you can't talk about the Soviet Union being a bad experiment in Communism because you never lived there."

WRONG.

You can observe behaviors, patterns, etc, and form opinions on those matters without them being completely invalid just because you've never directly experienced it. I didn't experience the Holocaust either, but I can say with a great level of confidence that it sucked ass.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry that your married friends can't gop out drinking with you anymore. It's possible that they have evolved into adults. It's not a bad thing.

BTW my wife and I always take a week to ourselves every year and also a week alone every once in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a huge jackass that, of course, completely ignored the entire point of my post, belittled one line of that you took completely out of context, and then agreed with the very sentiment I was trying to express (that parents need to take time to be adults together).

Thanks for not paying attention.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a parent myself, but many of my closest friends are. I find most of them have forgotten how to be adults. They've been reduced to sick, goofy photocopies of their former selves. And the reason why is because between working and raising their kids, they have no free time/spare money to do anything for themselves, by themselves. This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle, bad spouses to each other, and worse parents to their kids than they would be if they maintained their own identities.

[/ QUOTE ]


Bolded above is like saying "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV." I'm glad that you at least point out that you don't.

(edited for space)

Kids aren't for everyone. If you don't want to sacrifice, don't have kids. If you think they are too expensive, then no matter how much you make, they are - don't have them. I'd much prefer that none of you douchebags that think $$$ is the only thing never have any kids because I don't want my daughter meeting any of your kids.

~ThisHo

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well said.

The head-shaker for me was the comment "This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle"

lol, I knew it was a lost cause at that point and went to bed shortly after...

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, that was a small part of what I was saying (and you completely ignored the rest of it and failed to answer whether you thought my 1 night a week, 1 week a year was a reasonable standard). My main point is that parents are better parents and better spouses when they spend time together, alone...and that to do that on a regular basis takes some measure of financial freedom (not wealth, but comfort). Of course you completely ignored all of that.

Secondly, it DOES matter what kind of friends people become. Certainly not as much as it matters what kind of spouses and parents they are...but it still matters. You (and those on this thread that have agreed with you) have acted like you couldn't give two pieces of rat crap what kind of friends people remain once they have a child. And THAT is my very point.

Thirdly, if all you can do is shake your head and go to bed, it's possible you have your head so far up your kids' asses that you've forgotten how to make coherent, adult arguments. You've been saying all through this thread about how WE without kids don't understand, but you don't have the time or inclination to explain it to us. How edifying. Thanks so much for being condescending and never making your point other than in one-liners like, "You sacrAfice your freedoms for your kids" (since you're raising kids and that's the MOST important thing a person can EVER do, please learn how to spell the word "sacrifice" properly so you can teach that to your children) and "if you're not willing to be a slave to your children, don't have them."

Fantastic -- you're being a douchebag and acting haughty about it, all the while refusing to engage people like myself who have actually contributed an opinion WITH reasoning. What a wonderful characteristic to pass onto children. I'm so glad there's going to be more of you in the world.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I may have sounded harsh, but I really dont give a [censored]. I tottally understand putting your family in front of friends, I have no problem with that. But my particular friends, do not do anything, ever. They dont go out, ever, etc. And the only time I receive a call (I stopped calling them a long time ago), is when they need help with something, like sodding their lawn, or painting or something like that. I could tottally understand, if they called maybe once every month, just to see how [censored] is going etc, but they stopped that the second they got married. And these were really godd friends, that I rented a house with for 2 years etc. I just figured thats how everyone reacted when they got pusswhipped.
And you douche bags can call me a selfish jackass all you want, but Im not the one who decided to cut all ties to the outside world, because I have to focus on a relationship. I am not asking to go out and chase tail 5 nights a week, but hell, at least make 1 night a month to go out to a bar or a ball game etc.

BTW, most of my friends dont have kids, they just got married.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I mean, come on, who wouldn't want to hang out with you?

[ThisHo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a parent myself, but many of my closest friends are. I find most of them have forgotten how to be adults. They've been reduced to sick, goofy photocopies of their former selves. And the reason why is because between working and raising their kids, they have no free time/spare money to do anything for themselves, by themselves. This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle, bad spouses to each other, and worse parents to their kids than they would be if they maintained their own identities.

[/ QUOTE ]


Bolded above is like saying "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV."

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's really not. I don't have kids, but that doesn't mean I don't have an appropriate appreciation for what it's like to have kids, especially when I've been involved in many aspects of helping to raise a friend's child. Your argument is like saying, "you can't talk about the Soviet Union being a bad experiment in Communism because you never lived there."

WRONG.

You can observe behaviors, patterns, etc, and form opinions on those matters without them being completely invalid just because you've never directly experienced it. I didn't experience the Holocaust either, but I can say with a great level of confidence that it sucked ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

you compared having kids to Communism and the Holocaust, nice.

[ QUOTE ]
Sacrifice! Sacrifice! Sacrifice!

[/ QUOTE ]

Get this. If you have alot of money, you can do all that without the sacrifice!

[ QUOTE ]
The happiest moment of my day is when I walk in the door from my suck-ass job look up the stairs and my lil' girl is looking down the stairs with a HUGE smile on her face and my wife is right behind her with a big smile as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have money you can do that without the suck-ass job, and enjoy all of your life instead of just half of it. That is the point i am trying to make.

BTW I am poor, so being middle-class is rich to me. this is where I think alot of miscommunication in this thread stems.

I am mainly referring to being poor and having kids, not necessarily having to be ultra-rich to procreate. my comment about having "boatloads" of cash, was probably exadurated out of my resentment of being born into poverty.

[ThisHo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sacrifice! Sacrifice! Sacrifice!

[/ QUOTE ]

Get this. If you have alot of money, you can do all that without the sacrifice!

[/ QUOTE ]
no. If you have lots of $$$ you still have to give up doing what you want when you want because your kids should come first.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The happiest moment of my day is when I walk in the door from my suck-ass job look up the stairs and my lil' girl is looking down the stairs with a HUGE smile on her face and my wife is right behind her with a big smile as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you have money you can do that without the suck-ass job, and enjoy all of your life instead of just half of it. That is the point i am trying to make.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good point. Given the choice I would rather not have to work, but the OP basically said that because I have to work at a suck-ass job I shouldn't have kids. That point is totally incorrect.


[ QUOTE ]
BTW I am poor, so being middle-class is rich to me. this is where I think alot of miscommunication in this thread stems.

I am mainly referring to being poor and having kids, not necessarily having to be ultra-rich to procreate. my comment about having "boatloads" of cash, was probably exadurated out of my resentment of being born into poverty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the terms "rich" "poor" "wealthy" "boatloads" etc all have different meanings to different people. I would suggest that we include $values in the discussion, but that doesn't get us any closer because you can live pretty well on $50k/year in some (most?) of the U.S. but in large portions of California that doesn't come close to making ends meet.

Kids Rock!
~ThisHo

[Meatmaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO there are two types of guys:
Guy number 1:
Guy is kind of douche baggish, but not that bad. He is just there.
Guy gets a girl, and sings the praises of how its great to have a gf/kids/etc. Of course he is pussywhipped.
Guy gets married too early.
Guy ends up being unhappy after awhile.
Guy gets divorced.

Guy number 2.
Guy is not a douche bag.
Guy is fun, outgoing, has lots of friends.
Guy sleeps with a bunch of chicks, but doesnt stick to one.
Guy ends up getting married later in life 30-40.
Guy lives to be 90 with his wife.

This is from my experience from my friends, and family that I have noticed. It just seems that all the 19-23 year olds who sing the praises of being in a relationship, and make sure you know about it are the ones that [censored] up later in life. Dont be that guy.

[/ QUOTE ] So this is a complete either/or? To not be a douche, you need to be fun, outgoing, and have lots of friends? I'm funny, but I don't arrange social gatherings &amp; [censored]; that's somebody else's job. I need to be alone for at least 4-6 hours a day. Does that auto-paint me with the douche brush?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is obviously a gross generalization of two types of people. If the OP of this comment is implying that there are *only* these two types or even that there are *mostly* these two types, then it would follow that OP is claiming that most guys who get married under 30 get divorced among many other claims which are IMO likely to be false.

I don't know what the divorce rate is these days, and I've heard some shocking numbers, and I'm too lazy to google it, but I certainly wouldn't label most or all of my married friends as doomed to divorce.

Or myself, for that matter.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a parent myself, but many of my closest friends are. I find most of them have forgotten how to be adults. They've been reduced to sick, goofy photocopies of their former selves. And the reason why is because between working and raising their kids, they have no free time/spare money to do anything for themselves, by themselves. This causes them to be bad friends to those in our social circle, bad spouses to each other, and worse parents to their kids than they would be if they maintained their own identities.

[/ QUOTE ]


Bolded above is like saying "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV."

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's really not. I don't have kids, but that doesn't mean I don't have an appropriate appreciation for what it's like to have kids, especially when I've been involved in many aspects of helping to raise a friend's child. Your argument is like saying, "you can't talk about the Soviet Union being a bad experiment in Communism because you never lived there."

WRONG.

You can observe behaviors, patterns, etc, and form opinions on those matters without them being completely invalid just because you've never directly experienced it. I didn't experience the Holocaust either, but I can say with a great level of confidence that it sucked ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

you compared having kids to Communism and the Holocaust, nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to once again ignore what I'm saying and focus on one semantic in an attempt to not respond to what I'm saying. Fine, I can make the same parallel with good things...I don't have to live in Sweden to use my keen powers of observation and discover it has the highest quality-of-life on the planet, and thus is probably a nice place to live. I don't have to have BEEN Hugh Hefner to surmise that I would gladly trade lives with him (provided it was 50 years ago). Are you happy now? Can anyone on that side of this fence at least respond to WHAT I'm saying instead of nibbling around the edges just because you can't think of anything better to say?

Thanks.

[zoomOut]

[ QUOTE ]
Thirdly, if all you can do is shake your head and go to bed, it's possible you have your head so far up your kids' asses that you've forgotten how to make coherent, adult arguments.........Thanks so much for being condescending.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought this was funny. You are spot on.
I may not agree with everything you have to say but after I pulled my head out of my kid's ass I realized you made some very good points. This thread gets better and better. People should not be so smug that they can't see the humor (and truth) in statements like the above.


I happen to agree with both you and the OP:



[ QUOTE ]
i have alot of respect for my parent and other people who raised kids on meager salaries.

but i also think its insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's insane too.


It just makes so much more sense to wait til you have money and are financially stable before having kids. Of course I say all this after having done it the other way and now I recognize the idiocy of my own youth. Sammykid may not have kids but he is no idiot and has seen with his own eyes what the reality is and it is not pretty. He doesn't need to have children of his own to recognize the resulting chaos that occurs when two people try to raise a family on a meager income.

[haakee]

[ QUOTE ]
hell, i dont even know how anyone can have a wife without being rich when you consider how apt they are at burning money, and how many added expenses come along with a girl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow each of the last several gf's I've had were not money burners. Maybe because a moneyburning chick would get tired of my frugality really fast.

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO there are two types of guys:
Guy number 1:
Guy is kind of douche baggish, but not that bad. He is just there.
Guy gets a girl, and sings the praises of how its great to have a gf/kids/etc. Of course he is pussywhipped.
Guy gets married too early.
Guy ends up being unhappy after awhile.
Guy gets divorced.

Guy number 2.
Guy is not a douche bag.
Guy is fun, outgoing, has lots of friends.
Guy sleeps with a bunch of chicks, but doesnt stick to one.
Guy ends up getting married later in life 30-40.
Guy lives to be 90 with his wife.

This is from my experience from my friends, and family that I have noticed. It just seems that all the 19-23 year olds who sing the praises of being in a relationship, and make sure you know about it are the ones that [censored] up later in life. Dont be that guy.

[/ QUOTE ] So this is a complete either/or? To not be a douche, you need to be fun, outgoing, and have lots of friends? I'm funny, but I don't arrange social gatherings &amp; [censored]; that's somebody else's job. I need to be alone for at least 4-6 hours a day. Does that auto-paint me with the douche brush?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is obviously a gross generalization of two types of people. If the OP of this comment is implying that there are *only* these two types or even that there are *mostly* these two types, then it would follow that OP is claiming that most guys who get married under 30 get divorced among many other claims which are IMO likely to be false.

I don't know what the divorce rate is these days, and I've heard some shocking numbers, and I'm too lazy to google it, but I certainly wouldn't label most or all of my married friends as doomed to divorce.

Or myself, for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]


You have a 50/50 chance to get divorced if you are the average american. Maybe higher now.

[ QUOTE ]
I may have sounded harsh, but I really dont give a [censored]. I tottally understand putting your family in front of friends, I have no problem with that. But my particular friends, do not do anything, ever. They dont go out, ever, etc. And the only time I receive a call (I stopped calling them a long time ago), is when they need help with something, like sodding their lawn, or painting or something like that. I could tottally understand, if they called maybe once every month, just to see how [censored] is going etc, but they stopped that the second they got married. And these were really godd friends, that I rented a house with for 2 years etc. I just figured thats how everyone reacted when they got pusswhipped.
And you douche bags can call me a selfish jackass all you want, but Im not the one who decided to cut all ties to the outside world, because I have to focus on a relationship. I am not asking to go out and chase tail 5 nights a week, but hell, at least make 1 night a month to go out to a bar or a ball game etc.

BTW, most of my friends dont have kids, they just got married.

[/ QUOTE ]

Waaaaaaah. My friends had kids and won't play with me anymore. Waaaaaaaaah.

Dude, grow up. Move out of your parents' basement. Stop going to Star Trek conventions. Meet a girl.

[Dominic]

I think you should be allowed to have kids as long as you can aford them. Once you ak the State to help out (Welfare, etc.) the child/children get taken away from you and placed in wealthy barren couple's home.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[dibbs]

"hell, i dont even know how anyone can have a wife without being rich when you consider how apt they are at burning money, and how many added expenses come along with a girl."


haha you are a king, kane.

[Ser William]

[ QUOTE ]
I may have sounded harsh, but I really dont give a [censored]. I tottally understand putting your family in front of friends, I have no problem with that. But my particular friends, do not do anything, ever. They dont go out, ever, etc. And the only time I receive a call (I stopped calling them a long time ago), is when they need help with something, like sodding their lawn, or painting or something like that. I could tottally understand, if they called maybe once every month, just to see how [censored] is going etc, but they stopped that the second they got married. And these were really godd friends, that I rented a house with for 2 years etc. I just figured thats how everyone reacted when they got pusswhipped.
And you douche bags can call me a selfish jackass all you want, but Im not the one who decided to cut all ties to the outside world, because I have to focus on a relationship. I am not asking to go out and chase tail 5 nights a week, but hell, at least make 1 night a month to go out to a bar or a ball game etc.

BTW, most of my friends dont have kids, they just got married.

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread is clearly divided between the young, single, idealistic, generally well intentioned folks and then the people who've actually had kids.

You don't have to be rich to have kids.
You don't have to give up your friends to raise kids.
Having kids is not a death sentence.

You DO have to make some sacrifices and your life will change. To anyone who says differently, you'll find out someday. There is just no way you can be fully prepared for every little thing you need to do and there is no way I could try and attempt to convince you otherwise. If you aren't prepared for this then don't have kids. I have plenty of friends who have remained single and they are happy with their lives. They are also smart enough to realize that they just couldn't handle the responsibilities that having children would add. And if they call my wife and I up to do something and we have to cancel at the last minute because our son came down with a bad ear infection at daycare, they don't bitch us out or tell us what awful friends we have become.

When I chose to have a child I also chose adjusting my lifestyle. This means seeing less of my friends, readjusting my own personal time, and sacrificing doing SOME of the things I used to do. This doesn't make me a bad friend, or a bad person. It makes me a good parent.

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I may have sounded harsh, but I really dont give a [censored]. I tottally understand putting your family in front of friends, I have no problem with that. But my particular friends, do not do anything, ever. They dont go out, ever, etc. And the only time I receive a call (I stopped calling them a long time ago), is when they need help with something, like sodding their lawn, or painting or something like that. I could tottally understand, if they called maybe once every month, just to see how [censored] is going etc, but they stopped that the second they got married. And these were really godd friends, that I rented a house with for 2 years etc. I just figured thats how everyone reacted when they got pusswhipped.
And you douche bags can call me a selfish jackass all you want, but Im not the one who decided to cut all ties to the outside world, because I have to focus on a relationship. I am not asking to go out and chase tail 5 nights a week, but hell, at least make 1 night a month to go out to a bar or a ball game etc.

BTW, most of my friends dont have kids, they just got married.

[/ QUOTE ]

Waaaaaaah. My friends had kids and won't play with me anymore. Waaaaaaaaah.

Dude, grow up. Move out of your parents' basement. Stop going to Star Trek conventions. Meet a girl.

[/ QUOTE ]


See thats my point, people like you, are so [censored] up in the head that you have to have a relationship to validate your life. I dont. I have lots of girlfriends, have sex with a lot of girls, and am on good terms with them. Othert than a couple of my really good friends basically ditching me, my life is great. I dont need some type of co-dependent relatinship to prove to the world Im not a fuckup like you. If you have ever seen the commercial where the guy calls his wife, and the Milwaukee Beast falls on his head, that the caricature that I view of people like you.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should be allowed to have kids as long as you can aford them. Once you ak the State to help out (Welfare, etc.) the child/children get taken away from you and placed in wealthy barren couple's home.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I say we just take this to the next logical step and subject everyone who pays no income tax to compulsory sterilization.

[Ser William]

[ QUOTE ]
I have lots of girlfriends, have sex with a lot of girls, and am on good terms with them

[/ QUOTE ]

The more you talk, the more asinine you sound.

[STLantny]

How is that asinine? My point is, just because you get married
1. you are not a better person than me
2. you dont have to give up ALL aspects of your former social life
3. you shouldnt let the relationship define you

and just because im single
1. doesnt mean Im better than you
2. can have meaningful relationships with girls, they just dont have to be long term and monogymous

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
How is that asinine?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you need to ask...You'll never get it.

[STLantny]

darn, I wish i would of put it in my ealier post, that one fo you internet tough guys would respond with that exact answer.

[ligastar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hell, i dont even know how anyone can have a wife without being rich when you consider how apt they are at burning money, and how many added expenses come along with a girl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow each of the last several gf's I've had were not money burners. Maybe because a moneyburning chick would get tired of my frugality really fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you should be allowed to have kids as long as you can aford them. Once you ak the State to help out (Welfare, etc.) the child/children get taken away from you and placed in wealthy barren couple's home.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I say we just take this to the next logical step and subject everyone who pays no income tax to compulsory sterilization.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like it!

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is that asinine?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you need to ask...You'll never get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

ThinMan -- until you've responded to the myriad of things I've challenged you on, don't keep posting ridiculous, holier-than-thou, aloof, condescending remarks to anyone else on this thread.

You've been called out, sir...time to respond or shut the hell up.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is that asinine?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you need to ask...You'll never get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

ThinMan -- until you've responded to the myriad of things I've challenged you on, don't keep posting ridiculous, holier-than-thou, aloof, condescending remarks to anyone else on this thread.

You've been called out, sir...time to respond or shut the hell up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point me at the posts kid...I haven't the desire to thumb through the BS spewing out of this thread.


oh, but keep in mind...I'm an [censored]. I may not deem your posts worthy of reply.

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
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I think you should be allowed to have kids as long as you can aford them. Once you ak the State to help out (Welfare, etc.) the child/children get taken away from you and placed in wealthy barren couple's home.




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I say we just take this to the next logical step and subject everyone who pays no income tax to compulsory sterilization.


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i like it!

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How about adding some kind of intelligence test and a tax? Kids contribute jackshit to society so there production should be taxed heavily.

[zoomOut]

I believe these were your words thinman:

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This thread is sad on many levels.

None of you should spawn.

Here's a hint:

Being a parent is about making sacrafices which afford your children opportunity.

If you consider something like leting a crying brat 5 year old choose where you eat "making a sacrafice" or "affording them opportunity"...

...You've already lost.

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I'll say it again...

If you are not willing to be a slave to your children...Do not have any.


Being a slave to your children isn't about money.

I'm too pissed and tired to explain life to you right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty condescending to suggest you need to explain life to someone you don't even know anything about.

I read sammykid's posts and they made a lot of sense. People act very smug and condescending for some reason even in the face of truth. To say people like him shouldn't "spawn", and to dismiss his points with a chuckle was ridiculous.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe these were your words thinman:

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is sad on many levels.

None of you should spawn.

Here's a hint:

Being a parent is about making sacrafices which afford your children opportunity.

If you consider something like leting a crying brat 5 year old choose where you eat "making a sacrafice" or "affording them opportunity"...

...You've already lost.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
I'll say it again...

If you are not willing to be a slave to your children...Do not have any.


Being a slave to your children isn't about money.

I'm too pissed and tired to explain life to you right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty condescending to suggest you need to explain life to someone you don't even know anything about.

I read sammykid's posts and they made a lot of sense. People act very smug and condescending for some reason even in the face of truth. To say people like him shouldn't "spawn", and to dismiss his points with a chuckle was ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can live with and stand by each of those comments, including their tone.

(ding)! Ramens done! mmmmmmmm

[zoomOut]

sighhhh, you're too thinminded to even bother explaining life to...

go play with your noodles already

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
sighhhh, you're too thinminded to even bother explaining life to...

go play with your noodles already

[/ QUOTE ]


/images/graemlins/tongue.gif What do you expect? My comments where quoted. I supported them...

Dude up tops says he "called me out"..well..since I can't reply to my own comments, I supported them.

Condesending or not, they are my opinions.

[SammyKid11]

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How is that asinine?

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If you need to ask...You'll never get it.

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ThinMan -- until you've responded to the myriad of things I've challenged you on, don't keep posting ridiculous, holier-than-thou, aloof, condescending remarks to anyone else on this thread.

You've been called out, sir...time to respond or shut the hell up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point me at the posts kid...I haven't the desire to thumb through the BS spewing out of this thread.


oh, but keep in mind...I'm an [censored]. I may not deem your posts worthy of reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you f'in kidding me? I have to link you to posts in THIS thread in order for you to give one shred of support for your own callous, condescending one liner statements? My calling you out is all over the place -- if you "can't find them" I think it's because you've got nothing to SAY in response to it. Your problem, not mine...but I'll be hounding you every time you post another stupid snooty one-liner without responding to anything I've said with substance.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
How is that asinine?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you need to ask...You'll never get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

ThinMan -- until you've responded to the myriad of things I've challenged you on, don't keep posting ridiculous, holier-than-thou, aloof, condescending remarks to anyone else on this thread.

You've been called out, sir...time to respond or shut the hell up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point me at the posts kid...I haven't the desire to thumb through the BS spewing out of this thread.


oh, but keep in mind...I'm an [censored]. I may not deem your posts worthy of reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you f'in kidding me? I have to link you to posts in THIS thread in order for you to give one shred of support for your own callous, condescending one liner statements? My calling you out is all over the place -- if you "can't find them" I think it's because you've got nothing to SAY in response to it. Your problem, not mine...but I'll be hounding you every time you post another stupid snooty one-liner without responding to anything I've said with substance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I can live with this and will sleep quiet well tonight.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is that asinine?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you need to ask...You'll never get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

ThinMan -- until you've responded to the myriad of things I've challenged you on, don't keep posting ridiculous, holier-than-thou, aloof, condescending remarks to anyone else on this thread.

You've been called out, sir...time to respond or shut the hell up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point me at the posts kid...I haven't the desire to thumb through the BS spewing out of this thread.


oh, but keep in mind...I'm an [censored]. I may not deem your posts worthy of reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you f'in kidding me? I have to link you to posts in THIS thread in order for you to give one shred of support for your own callous, condescending one liner statements? My calling you out is all over the place -- if you "can't find them" I think it's because you've got nothing to SAY in response to it. Your problem, not mine...but I'll be hounding you every time you post another stupid snooty one-liner without responding to anything I've said with substance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I can live with this and will sleep quiet well tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you do sleep "quiet" well...what?