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View Full Version : 2 Hands --- 1 Simple, 1 Not So Much


KramerTM
08-19-2005, 12:01 AM
Just checking with the first...

***** Hand History for Game 2559184850 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $34 Buy-in Trny:14963235 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, August 18, 23:53:04 EDT 2005
Table Qualifier to PPM V Semis #1050545 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: lars19111 ( $900 )
Seat 3: DeButcha ( $1390 )
Seat 4: jesrn ( $1750 )
Seat 6: Windowlicka ( $860 )
Seat 7: KramerTM ( $1482 )
Seat 8: hwm1952 ( $1488 )
Seat 10: mobilgasss ( $630 )
Seat 5: valjon3447 ( $1500 )
Trny:14963235 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to KramerTM [ 4d 4s ]
KramerTM folds.


The second I am a bit more unsure of.

***** Hand History for Game 2559190610 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $34 Buy-in Trny:14963235 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, August 18, 23:53:59 EDT 2005
Table Qualifier to PPM V Semis #1050545 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: lars19111 ( $800 )
Seat 3: DeButcha ( $1740 )
Seat 4: jesrn ( $1750 )
Seat 6: Windowlicka ( $760 )
Seat 7: KramerTM ( $1482 )
Seat 8: hwm1952 ( $1388 )
Seat 10: mobilgasss ( $630 )
Seat 5: valjon3447 ( $1450 )
Trny:14963235 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to KramerTM [ 5s As ]
hwm1952 folds.
mobilgasss folds.
lars19111 calls [100].
DeButcha folds.
jesrn raises [200].
valjon3447 calls [200].
Windowlicka folds.
KramerTM calls [100].
lars19111 calls [100].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, Td, 9s ]
KramerTM checks.
lars19111 checks.
jesrn bets [100].
valjon3447 raises [400].
>You have options at Million Dollar Qualifier #265594 Table!.
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
KramerTM folds.

ChuckNorris
08-19-2005, 12:06 AM
Both are folds preflop. Since you didn't fold #2 pf, I think you can fold the flop. The flop is scary and there is a bet and a raise. I don't think you have much FE for a push here. I am pretty weak with draws though.

KramerTM
08-19-2005, 10:50 AM
Hoping to get some more feedback on the second hand. Basically, as the hand was happening, my thoughts were that if the second player called the small bet, I would be in a good position to make a semi-bluff push, because I would have such good FE. However, after the raise, I was thinking that my FE went to crap. Basically, a push would almost be like calling an all-in here (I suppose I still had SOME FE), which we all know would be a donk move.

tigerite
08-19-2005, 10:55 AM
Going for the check raise is fine on that flop, but once it's been raised and re-raised you have to let it go. I'd fold it preflop though.

Hand 1, a fold is ok, you could raise to steal with it too, nobody is really low to act after you. Depends on the table and your image, really.

pooh74
08-19-2005, 11:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1, a fold is ok, you could raise to steal with it too, nobody is really low to act after you. Depends on the table and your image, really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you raise to steal with this hand if "no one is low to act after you"? That makes no sense from UTG. If anything, with 44, I might raise to steal because if a Shortie pushes I can call getting such great odds. In this example however, a raise to steal has to be folded to a reraise most of the time so OP's hand might as well be 72...IOW, fold PF.

This is a big mistake I see players make and its a big deal IMO. They get a very mediocre holding (44) pf and think it "deserves" a raise or shot at a steal. What they fail to see is that, just because its an ok hand doesnt make it any more worthy of a raise than a worse hand that you are not willing to play all your chips for. If, on the other hand, there are 3 to act after me, BB is 100 and button has 450 left, maybe Ill raise to 300 and only call a reraise from him. Then my raise has some merit.

OP's hand from UTG is basically a blind steal from a terrible position...44 is way too vulnerable.

NOt trying to be rude, but i think that was bad advice.

tigerite
08-19-2005, 11:40 AM
I only said 'could'. And I did stipulate only on certain tables, i.e., tight ones where your raises would be respected. Nowhere did I say you should raise this every time or even close to 50% of the time from this position.

08-19-2005, 11:47 AM
I fold both pf.

I believe you were thinking you have incredible odds with A5s preflop (7:1).

However, your only playing this for flush value. If an A spikes you have kicker trouble. If a 5 spikes you almost always have bottom or middle pair. So the flush is your only hope when calling preflop. (Your OOP to boot).

The problem is this is middle-game, the blinds are too big for deep stack play; yet too small for push-botting.

You cant play this like you can with a deep stack. Even if you get lucky enough to catch your flush draw (which you did). Your only going to complete the flush 1/3 of the time, and 75% of the time your not going to complete the flush cheaply.

So your only going to get your desired result about 10% of the time(.33*.25). Or 1:9, which doesn't compensate for the 7:1 pot odds...so you should fold pf.

Hope this helps /images/graemlins/smile.gif

pooh74
08-19-2005, 12:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I only said 'could'. And I did stipulate only on certain tables, i.e., tight ones where your raises would be respected. Nowhere did I say you should raise this every time or even close to 50% of the time from this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that. But my point to you is, "what do you hope to achieve EVER raising 44 UTG with OP's stack, 8 handed, blinds 100 and chip stacks as above?" I wouldnt even do this at a tight table, or a certain % of the time to mix up my game. I would push this hand before I would raise it, and I think pushing it suks too.

pooh74
08-19-2005, 12:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I fold both pf.

I believe you were thinking you have incredible odds with A5s preflop (7:1).

However, your only playing this for flush value. If an A spikes you have kicker trouble. If a 5 spikes you almost always have bottom or middle pair. So the flush is your only hope when calling preflop. (Your OOP to boot).

The problem is this is middle-game, the blinds are too big for deep stack play; yet too small for push-botting.

You cant play this like you can with a deep stack. Even if you get lucky enough to catch your flush draw (which you did). Your only going to complete the flush 1/3 of the time, and 75% of the time your not going to complete the flush cheaply.

So your only going to get your desired result about 10% of the time(.33*.25). Or 1:9, which doesn't compensate for the 7:1 pot odds...so you should fold pf.

Hope this helps /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nevermind the fact that those desired results are always going to involve calling off big chunks of stack to get the result by 5th street. Flopping a flush is like 25-1 against right?

Both hands are folds...A5s a little less clear a fold but I would fold it.

08-19-2005, 12:13 PM
3 way with that much money in the pot...couldn't the math actually work for a push here in hand two?

edit: after the flop I mean. I definitely fold PF.

KramerTM
08-20-2005, 03:44 PM
Thanks for the responses... helpful all around.

I'm still not convinced the second hand is a fold PF. I don't know why you didn't include flopping trips, a straight, or two-pair into the equation. Surely that must add some value to my hand. Lastly, with a flop with 2 spades that is otherwise not scary, I can check-raise all-in most of the time (this time was an exception because of the heavy action after my check).

I consider myself to be a solid post-flop player, so all things considered, I still like my call PF here.

inyaface
08-20-2005, 06:03 PM
I might be wrong but isn't this an only 1st pays qualifier ....you have to push the fl draw there if it is for sure. Gambool a bit