A10o OOP [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

chucksim

08-18-2005, 11:28 PM

I stink, I know. Comments on the play of this hand? Just felt strange to me. Button has generally been aggressive. UTG will play any big cards. No read on SB.

When calling hands like this pre-flop out of the blinds I sometimes feel like I don't know exactly where I am. I'll post this in stages:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 5 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero???

Redd

08-18-2005, 11:30 PM

I'd raise for value, and to put pressure on the pfr in case he's drawing to a 5-outer or gutshot.

TomBrooks

08-19-2005, 02:40 AM

I'd RAISE!

Baseballer02

08-19-2005, 02:46 AM

I raise in this spot with top pair/decent kicker and two backdoor draws.

If button calls/3-bets or SB 3-bets what do we do on the turn unimproved?

SoftcoreRevolt

08-19-2005, 03:06 AM

With an aggressive button and only one limper to him his range is very large, so I raise this and probably call down unimproved if he 3 bets.

08-19-2005, 05:35 AM

Unless he's ultra laggro preflop, you gotta dump this preflop dude.

08-19-2005, 08:46 AM

you need to raise here to protect and isolate, if hes not a lag im folding to a 3 bet prob, the call preflop is stinky
cdl

AussieBattler

08-19-2005, 08:58 AM

my first grunch.....for me, a SB bet into a PRF usually smells of 2pr or better but he might be raising his flush/straightdraw

but you gotta reraise. If you get heads up and SB keeps betting Ill prob be weaktight and call down whilst hoping Ill catch a runner A high flush /images/graemlins/cool.gif

cant wait to see how it progresses but Ill take a stab and say SB has A5s

xenthebrain

08-19-2005, 08:59 AM

raise it up. Make it expensive to draw out on you. You have no reason to think that you don't have the best hand atm.

jrz1972

08-19-2005, 09:02 AM

Raise.

The preflop call is slightly on the loose side, but basically fine, especially when you consider that button could have been trying to isolate so his range is a little wider than normal.

chucksim

08-19-2005, 09:36 AM

I agree, jrz. I like to drop this if the raiser was tighter or in earlier position. This looked more like a steal (albeit not pure because of the UTG limper), so I figured I'd take one off.

I agree with the raise, as that's what I did. Figured I'd pressure the button as much as possible. Here's the next action:

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, Hero ???

Sykes

08-19-2005, 09:42 AM

PF is a fine call and you need to call this in the BB always for 1 bet.

Flop is fine. Call the 3 bet, you have odds to hit a T plus you have a backdoor straight/flush draw.

Turn and river are player dependant (also depends on what cards hit the turn).

SB could have 55/AJ/A5/random diamonds (KJ/JT most likely).

xenthebrain

08-19-2005, 09:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]
Makes a loose flopcall and folds the turn UI unless hero has a very agressive read on SB.

VoraciousReader

08-19-2005, 09:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]

...The preflop call is slightly on the loose side, but basically fine, especially when you consider that button could have been trying to isolate so his range is a little wider than normal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never cold call with A10o, but I pretty much always play it for one bet out of the BB unless the pre-flop raiser is pretty tight.

Leak?

chucksim

08-19-2005, 10:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I would never cold call with A10o, but I pretty much always play it for one bet out of the BB unless the pre-flop raiser is pretty tight.

Leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I think along these lines. A10o is right on the bubble of "good enough to take one off for one bet in the BB". In this hand, I called because sometimes I'm a bit too tight. I figured the button might be trying a half-baked steal attempt (or maybe didn't even notice that UTG had limped).

The fact that you can wind up in these types of questionable spots is the reason playing it is marginal at best (IMO).

chucksim

08-19-2005, 10:48 AM

I agree with the call. I'd be pretty lax if I folded for 1 bet back to me, even though I get in trouble. Here's where things get interesting (I think)....

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

Absolution

08-19-2005, 11:02 AM

Wow, that is some weird-ass play. I think you have the best hand here. It looks like SB got overzealous on the flop. You just called 3 on the flop so he must think you're going to slow down. This 'should' have discouraged him from trying a check-raise here. My instinct says that this is a micro player getting scared of the big turn bets and is unwilling to continue fighting for this pot with a marginal hand. I would bet for value.

Bradyams

08-19-2005, 11:08 AM

Given his turn check SB may have been pumping a flush draw. I'd bet, and then kick the cat if I get check/raised.

jrz1972

08-19-2005, 11:13 AM

Bet. Looks like a flush draw from SB.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 11:24 AM

...raises. You've got top pair with a kicker that needs to be protected, and a backdoor nut-flush draw. One limper and a raise from an aggressive Button preflop doesn't mean anything, nor does an opening bet on a scary board.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 11:25 AM

Call down. It's got to get a lot scarier before you should fold this.

VoraciousReader

08-19-2005, 11:26 AM

That is strange...3bet, check?

I think I bet...now let me see if I can figure out why. UTG looks like he's either on a draw or has an A but is scared of his kicker. And I guess SB is likely on a free-card play. (Or maybe 2 pr that wimped out after 2 players called his 3bet?)

I think we are either still ahead here, or have many outs, and I don't want them to draw for nothing, so I bet and hope SB isn't on a checkraise.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 11:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Unless he's ultra laggro preflop, you gotta dump this preflop dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's aggressive preflop and with only one limper before him, he could be raising just about anything. You're getting 6:1, probably 7:1, to call. You need to see this flop, even if Button is the rockiest rock that ever rocked.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 11:33 AM

Calls, planning to call down UI against an unknown.

Guess the PFR's hand wasn't that great after all, eh?

bozlax

08-19-2005, 11:35 AM

...doesn't want to get C/R'd, so takes a free card.

Hey, that rhymes.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 11:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...have many outs...

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? We had a lot of outs on the flop. Now we've lost both our backdoor draws, we're drawing dead to a set, possibly dead to a better ace, we aren't HU, and this would be a crap-ass place to get c/r'd. I stick to my plan and get as cheap a showdown as I can; you are not going to get a flush draw to fold for one bet.

jrz1972

08-19-2005, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I stick to my plan and get as cheap a showdown as I can; you are not going to get a flush draw to fold for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but you earn Sklansky bucks off of them.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

...The preflop call is slightly on the loose side, but basically fine, especially when you consider that button could have been trying to isolate so his range is a little wider than normal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never cold call with A10o, but I pretty much always play it for one bet out of the BB unless the pre-flop raiser is pretty tight.

Leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like so many things, this is situational. In this case you've got an aggressive preflop raiser in a position where he could be trying to isolate against a weakling; I think you're giving up waaaay too much by not playing here.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I stick to my plan and get as cheap a showdown as I can; you are not going to get a flush draw to fold for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but you earn Sklansky bucks off of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. Too bad my golf pro won't take Sklansky bucks. HU I bet this in a second, tho.

Bodhi

08-19-2005, 12:05 PM

The button was not described as aggressive in the OP. Anyway, according to the "big-ace" theory of raising, ATo sucks against a typical pfr. The fact that everyone folded to the button does make it stink like a steal, so in this case calling can be ok, just don't get trapped.

VoraciousReader

08-19-2005, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...have many outs...

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? We had a lot of outs on the flop. Now we've lost both our backdoor draws, we're drawing dead to a set, possibly dead to a better ace, we aren't HU, and this would be a crap-ass place to get c/r'd. I stick to my plan and get as cheap a showdown as I can; you are not going to get a flush draw to fold for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many outs may be overstating the case. However, I'm not betting to fold the flush draw. If SB doesn't checkraise, the only thing I can think we are behind to is 2 pr, and probably not top 2 pr. So a Q or T may give us the best hand (as the board reads now our T would play if we both had AAQQ), or if SB has Q5 an ace may.

And I think most likely if we are called here and not raised, we are winning now.

Getting c/red here would really stink, and I'm not convinced betting out is the best play. If I'm c/red I don't know how I'd play the hand from there (because then I would think SB had trips), which may be the best argument of all for just checking. But when I read the action, my first thought was "bet", and I explained why. I may be overthinking this.

Plus, I'm still lousy at poker, and I have to admit, I haven't seen that many players 3bet the flop and then check the turn (I play .50/1). So my instincts could be wrong.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...I haven't seen that many players 3bet the flop and then check the turn (I play .50/1)....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a weird one at any limit. And, if we didn't all suck at poker, we wouldn't spend as much time posting about it as we do.

A post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=3168678&F orum=f21&Words=%2Bplan&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main= 3168678&Search=true&where=sub&Name=&daterange=1&ne werval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev =#Post3168678) came up this week from DD about the importance of developing a plan when you see the flop for the turn and river. He was speaking specifically about HU situations, but I think it applies, here. In this hand, my plan would be "be aggro on the flop, and keep aggressing unless played back at, but unless things get really scary I want to see a showdown." So, I'd raise the flop when it first comes to me, call when 3-bet, and now I'm in "get to showdown cheaply" mode, mostly because SB is unknown so I can't expect to make the "best" play based on his tendencies.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The button was not described as aggressive in the OP. Anyway, according to the "big-ace" theory of raising, ATo sucks against a typical pfr. The fact that everyone folded to the button does make it stink like a steal, so in this case calling can be ok, just don't get trapped.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, from the OP:

[ QUOTE ]
Button has generally been aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Second, there was a limper in EP, then it was folded to Button, so it stinks like an isolation attempt. Pretty much the same idea, but I'd expect Button's cards to be slightly better in the second instance. Still, a large hand range.

And, not getting trapped is why I'm advocating checking when checked to on the turn /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

chucksim

08-19-2005, 02:12 PM

Obviously, this is where I really got confused. With his pre-flop aggression, I thought I was behind. At the moment, him checking really stunk to high heaven.

My first thought was that this was maybe a bad player on a flush draw trying to get a free card "at any cost" while out of position. If I know that, I bet in a heartbeat. However, after getting 3-bet, I'm not convinced that he doesn't have a set or 2 pair and is going for a CR on the big street.

Sklansky bucks aside, I don't want to get whacked here. UTG is drawing at something, or has a weaker Ace, but either way he isn't going anywhere if I bet. Consequently, I take the cheap way out.

Now for the last decision on the river. Without someone behind me, I know what I do on the river. Since he's still there, now what's my move?

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

dethgrind

08-19-2005, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, this is where I really got confused. With his pre-flop aggression, I thought I was behind. At the moment, him checking really stunk to high heaven.

My first thought was that this was maybe a bad player on a flush draw trying to get a free card "at any cost" while out of position. If I know that, I bet in a heartbeat. However, after getting 3-bet, I'm not convinced that he doesn't have a set or 2 pair and is going for a CR on the big street.

Sklansky bucks aside, I don't want to get whacked here. UTG is drawing at something, or has a weaker Ace, but either way he isn't going anywhere if I bet. Consequently, I take the cheap way out.

Now for the last decision on the river. Without someone behind me, I know what I do on the river. Since he's still there, now what's my move?

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're willing to call this bet, you should have bet yourself on the turn.

Bradyams

08-19-2005, 02:45 PM

This river is an easy call. Since you checked on the turn, this could be a stone cold bluff with a missed draw, or a made hand that you beat. You are good here enough to call this IMO.

Baloosh

08-19-2005, 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

Check, and UTG will likely check. If he bets for some strange reason, and SB calls, overcall? If SB raises, you can fold. UTG will check the vast majority of the time, however. Overcall can't be right. Raise? Do you like your hand well enough to C/R this into 2 callers? Fold?

If you could be more sure you'd miss bets if you bet this river, then bet after SB checks... but it doesn't sound like you can be sure enough of that to bet it.

pryor15

08-19-2005, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you have to call here. he could have a smaller A, a busted flush, a busted straight, a Q (hey, you never know), and a whole host of hands you beat.

i would have bet the turn though, b/c at least somebody's on a flush draw and you might be able to get it HU

Baloosh

08-19-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

Check, and UTG will likely check. If he bets for some strange reason, and SB calls, overcall? If SB raises, you can fold. UTG will check the vast majority of the time, however. Overcall can't be right. Raise? Do you like your hand well enough to C/R this into 2 callers? Fold?

If you could be more sure you'd miss bets if you bet this river, then bet after SB checks... but it doesn't sound like you can be sure enough of that to bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF am I thinking? SB bet here, so checking is out. I meant call. Replace all instances of "Check" with "call."

Or just ignore my post altogether.

bozlax

08-19-2005, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're willing to call this bet, you should have bet yourself on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you seriously believe this, then you're giving up a lot of hands on the river that you shouldn't be. I wouldn't be raising, and I expect this turns into a 2-way split, but don't fold a good hand to one bet on the river, especially once you've gotten what you wanted. Call, and if UTG raises I probably call that as well. If it's two back to you (which it won't be), I'd give it up, there, but it'd be pretty tough and the cat would take one hell of a beating.

badbill7

08-19-2005, 05:27 PM

CALL
TURN PLAY IS HARD TO SAY SINCE NO READS HERE. I VOTE BET OUT IF CHECKED TO US ESPECIALLY IF DIAMOND FALLS BUT IF A BLANK FALLS I THINK I STILL BET TURN

badbill7

08-19-2005, 05:36 PM

Flop: (8 SB) 5, Q, A (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

SEEMS PRETTY STRAIGHT FORWARD HERE. GUY PROB HAS KQ DIAMONDS OR MAYBE EVEN JUST AJO. EITHER WAY IM NOT SURE CAN VALUE BET HERE WITH UTG. SB COULD HOLD AK HERE, EITHER WAY IM CONCERNED WITH UG MORE THAN THIS GUY NOW. DOES PRESENCE OF UG DISSUADE US FROM VALUE BETTING HERE? ID LIKE TO KNOW. I THINK ITS CLOSE BUT IM LEANIN TOWARDS BETTIN HERE

badbill7

08-19-2005, 05:45 PM

NO BRAINER CALL RIVER FOR ONE ALL DAY LONG. IF UG CALL ALSO I THINK YOUR BEAT

bozlax

08-19-2005, 05:58 PM

Why, pray tell, are you YELLING?

Paxosmotic

08-19-2005, 06:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why, pray tell, are you YELLING?

[/ QUOTE ]
B00BIES!

(Raise, fold turn UI after the 3-bet)

08-19-2005, 06:11 PM

Grunching...

Flop: Fold is out of the question because of the pot size. There is a chance SB has me beaten (like AK) but I can´t be sure. I have not seen buttons reaction to the flop yet. I have a backdoor flush to the nut, backdoor str8 and top pair. I would call.

/Corleone

chucksim

08-20-2005, 11:56 AM

I called. UTG folded, obviously on some sort of draw. SB showed me JJ with the J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (not that even that warranted him overplaying the flop like he did) and MHIG.

River: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Thanks for all the comments. I thought I really botched the hand up, but it sounds like a lot of folks would have played it pretty much the same. Thanks again.