$109s - This is Real Ugly

[Unarmed]

Terrible. Give me a better line.
Villain is the ultimate LAP.
In a previous game, I raised UTG PF level 2, got 4 callers, pushed an all unders flop, and he called with QJo. I've also seen him slowplay in the most bizarre spots. Unfortunately, I don't know what his raise habits are. How do I "protect" (quoted because I may already be smashed) my hand against a guy like this? Or do I just acknowledge its a crappy spot and move on?

He doubled up on some whack two-pair BTW.
Actually, the more I look at this, the more I like blocking the river for 200. I figured he'd check though with everything I beat, but I think that's a bad assumption to make about any player.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1325)
MP2 (t2040)
MP3 (t945)
CO (t10)
Button (t980)
SB (t835)
BB (t1000)
Hero (t1065)
UTG+1 (t990)
UTG+2 (t810)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls t15, Hero calls t15, MP1 calls t15.

Flop: (t130) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t50</font>, BB folds, Hero calls t50, MP1 calls t50.

Turn: (t280) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t150.

River: (t580) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t500</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1080

[cha59]

I don't play the 109's, but wouldn't it make sense to either bet or checkraise the flop?

I want to take down the pot right there with 99 and an unthreatening flop.

[Annulus]

I will admit this is one of the few times I like the miniraise UTG with middle pocket pairs, its kinda deceptive/ sneaky and also will give you a little more clout and will thin the field. I like betting 3/4th the pot on the flop. why check call? Even a check raise is better in my opinion. I think your turn bet is way to weak looking and is giving a good price to drawing hands.

In summary. Even UTG i like a mini raise of 30 or 45. leading the flop, and even check raiseing is good. Bet the pot on the turn if called. I think you win the pot on the flop or turn if played a little more aggressiveley.

[lastchance]

I think this is a lovely spot to raise the flop to t200 and push any non AK or non AKQ turn.

[HighestCard]

I think you need to raise the flop against this player. Like you said before, he called a push with two overs on a low flop...why wouldnt he call/push to a re-raise of say t140? I doubt your going to see higher pockets with him min raising preflop at this level. The turn bet seems standard to me. I'm guessing hes jumping on your weak check on the river. Can he really call the turn bet with ace jack, and why would he over play his top pair instead of value betting it? I would of probably done the blocking bet on the river like you suggested....but then again...

I'm only a 11 and 22 player so I wouldnt take much credit to my reply obviously. I'm posting this to see if my thinking would be along the lines of the "pro's" e.g. raptor, you ect...

Bring on the flames...

[Oluwafemi]

Flop: (t130) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP2 bets t50, Hero raises t185-235.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t130) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP2 bets t50, Hero raises t185-235.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i like this - was thinking about t225 before I read the other postings.

[Matt R.]

I would prefer a flop raise against a crazy, unpredictable type of player such as this. Since he could have anything from the way it sounds, you stand to be further ahead of his holding on average than your typical 109'er, so I'd like it if you put your raise in then. I like your idea of a 200 bet on the river as well to keep him from moving you off a better hand. Plus it could very well work as a value bet from the way you describe him.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t130) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP2 bets t50, Hero raises t185-235.

[/ QUOTE ]

...in other words, you're investing basically the same amount on the flop that you're investing up to the river. however; in the c/r option, i think you buy the strength of LAP's hand earlier and forgo yourself the ugliness of it all. plus, i feel your chances are way better at taking the pot down on the flop and having those chips in your stack rather than calling to the river [showing no strength] and having to finally fold. i think c/rng the flop and having him call also narrows down his range too, despite how LA he may be.

[AliasMrJones]

I don't like the flop check/call. Bet out or check/raise. Over cards on the turn are not a good thing with this many players in the pot. I think you want to take it down now or at least thin the field down to heads up if possible.

[ChuckNorris]

As everyone else said, raise the flop. Why didn't you? Same thing as with the JJ hand a while ago.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop check/call. Bet out or check/raise. Over cards on the turn are not a good thing with this many players in the pot. I think you want to take it down now or at least thin the field down to heads up if possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Matt R.]

Unarmed,
I'm curious why you didn't raise the flop on this hand as well. I believe I understand with the JJ hand. You were bet into by a player who did not raise preflop, with the preflop raiser yet to act. Also, there were 3 overcards and 3 to a flush that could come on the turn. Given that, I can see waiting until the turn to raise to see what develops, and conserve chips if the action gets ugly.

Here though, I would definitely raise the flop since the preflop aggressor is such a 'bad', or at least unpredictable, player. Also, no one has shown aggression in this hand except for him and the board isn't very draw heavy. I could see the merits of waiting in the other hand, but waiting here against this type of player just seems too weak.

You play several buy-ins higher than I do though, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Isura]

I like the river block. Why take control on the turn and give it right back to him on the river? I think if you check the river, it has to be with the intention of calling (inducing a bluff).

[Unarmed]

I didn't raise the flop because Villain will call me with anything under the sun, including hands that already have me smashed. I wasn't comfortable building a massive pot OOP with a vulnerable hand not having a clue where I'm at.

My goal in this hand was to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. I figured calling the flop and leading the turn was the best way to do this. I'm really not all that upset if an ace hits the turn and I have to release the hand because honestly, I may not even be ahead on this flop. It's not real co-ordinated so an idiot will happily underbet AA. I actually like the line I took on the flop and turn. The river is clearly pathetic.

Or, maybe not raising the flop is just plain bad. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[microbet]

Serious question. Not trying to be a punk. I do not doubt that you have a better idea what you're doing than I do.

When do you bet a flop?

[ChuckNorris]

I think it's pretty clear that you're most likely ahead on this flop. Villain should usually be holding two overcards, right? In that case getting to the river cheap should be villains goal, not yours. If villain is calling you with anything, just bet / raise big!

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Serious question. Not trying to be a punk. I do not doubt that you have a better idea what you're doing than I do.

When do you bet a flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think the last couple posts I've been OOP and/or playing against a PF raiser. Taking the lead in situations like that often makes the hand extremely difficult to play. Go read all of Irie's posts on betting impetus if you need a far better explanation than I give could give you
BTW I'm not quite sure why everyone seems to think I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm still learning, just like everyone here.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW I'm not quite sure why everyone seems to think I know exactly what I'm doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, didn't (edit.. more than) half a dozen posters just disagree with your play /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Matt R.]

That's what a thought your reasoning was. I agree that this is a good line to take against a 'typical' preflop raiser who is tricky (and you can't read him for anything), but it sounds like this guy's play is really off the mark sometimes. I think that being worried that you're 'smashed' whenever a guy like this bets at all can be problematic, and can cause you to lose out on a lot of value bets/raises and can lead to a lot of incorrect folds. Especially with the way you said he called an all-in with QJo. I just don't see him having the goods all that often with the way he bet this hand.

Maybe he just bets with monsters and calls every other time, and that's what I'm missing? Otherwise, I think you're usually in very good shape on the flop, which is why I prefer the raise. I *would* keep the raise small though, maybe in the t150-175 range, so you don't build the pot up too much OOP, as you said.

That being said, I don't hate just calling the flop or anything -- I think I would just usually raise against this type of player. And I definitely like your idea of the 200 bet on the river once you get there.

[Nacarno]

[ QUOTE ]
My goal in this hand was to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. I figured calling the flop and leading the turn was the best way to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm curious as to why you think this is the cheapest way to get to a showdown. How were you thinking he'd respond to you taking the lead? Are you thinking that a turn bet will freeze him up the rest of the way? If that's true, then I like a blocking bet on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise the flop because Villain will call me with anything under the sun, including hands that already have me smashed. I wasn't comfortable building a massive pot OOP with a vulnerable hand not having a clue where I'm at.

My goal in this hand was to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. I figured calling the flop and leading the turn was the best way to do this. I'm really not all that upset if an ace hits the turn and I have to release the hand because honestly, I may not even be ahead on this flop. It's not real co-ordinated so an idiot will happily underbet AA. I actually like the line I took on the flop and turn. The river is clearly pathetic.

Or, maybe not raising the flop is just plain bad. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't this mean his erratic style has defeated you? By taking this weak, scared line, you have turned the keys to the hand over to him, displaying your weakness right out in the open for him to see, and inviting him to make a big move at the pot on the river regardless of the fact he's holding KQo.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW I'm not quite sure why everyone seems to think I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm still learning, just like everyone here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause Irie gave you the love.

I just wanted to make sure my question didn't sound like I was saying I know you are wrong.

It is amazing how drastically different approaches have very similar results. I think the most important thing one can do for their game is to NEVER NEVER do anything overtly stupid.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise the flop because Villain will call me with anything under the sun, including hands that already have me smashed. I wasn't comfortable building a massive pot OOP with a vulnerable hand not having a clue where I'm at.

My goal in this hand was to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. I figured calling the flop and leading the turn was the best way to do this. I'm really not all that upset if an ace hits the turn and I have to release the hand because honestly, I may not even be ahead on this flop. It's not real co-ordinated so an idiot will happily underbet AA. I actually like the line I took on the flop and turn. The river is clearly pathetic.

Or, maybe not raising the flop is just plain bad. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
IMO if this is your true feeling then you should fold

Personally I'm raising the flop. Yeah, you may not be ahead but you probably are and if he comes over the top then you know. I really think that this hand is easy to play if you checkraise the flop and against a player this bad you stand to still take plenty of chips against a weaker hand (AK)

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW I'm not quite sure why everyone seems to think I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm still learning, just like everyone here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause Irie gave you the love.


[/ QUOTE ]

True. Irie has so much pull in this forum. (Not that he shouldn't)

After that one post where he advocated minraising after limpers lvl 1, I swear that I saw 200% more minraises in the $109s. Now I can't tell who's a fish and who's not.

[freemoney]

i think we play alot different so our lines are gonna be different, i like controlling hands and being the aggressor against most opponenets ill play a big pot here. i think your biggest weakness is that your play creates these semi large awkward sized pots with lines that are very indicative to weak holdings so i just think you are too often the one put to the test rather than putting villian to the test.

[Irieguy]

If you saw this guy call you all-in with QJo after whiffing the flop in a prior game, your goal in life is to let him call your overbets when you have the best hand forever.

Overbet the flop.

If he pushes, call.

If he calls, push the turn.

Your line is fine in a deep stack ring game, but in a SNG this is a spot where you rate so strongly to be ahead of somebody who rates so strongly to call you with a worse hand that you are best served by leading big.

Irieguy

[Jman28]

I support not raising the flop. Too many cards leave you in a really tough spot.

What about check/raising all-in on the turn? At first I was thinking this might be a bad line because you either lose a lot or win a little, but given your read, he may call here with overcards. That makes it +EV in my book. (book=opinion)

[Gramps]

Given the type of player (QJo example), leading out the Turn and folding to the River bet seems like not the best combo. Seems like he's a total loose player who could call with shat on the Turn, and bluff the River. Okay to lead if you think he'll do this even if you're ahead on the Turn (likely way ahead) and are prepared to call the River on most cards that hit, but if the potential pot-sized River bet after your River check makes you uncomfortable (A jack is an overcard, but you can't put him on that), probably better to try and manage the pot size a little better on the Turn. Or else C/R the Turn and close him out (he did call a huge bet with QJo unimproved once before anyhow, he might call with total shat your Turn C/R all-in). If going to war with your 99 makes you uncomfortable here, you can always check the Turn, and fold to any decent-sized bet.

What the mini-raise PF means is relevant as well, thoguh against this type of player it probably doesn't mean much (unless you've seen something else before).

[WebGuySteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a lovely spot to raise the flop to t200 and push any non AK or non AKQ turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I am liking this line best. Like pretty much everyone has said, since he's gonna call you with trash, let him do it while you still are probably ahead! if you run into 88, or AA, or some other monster, fire up another sng. You don't often get a good chance to double early, and if you don't double off of him, someone else will.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

Your line is fine in a deep stack ring game, but in a SNG this is a spot where you rate so strongly to be ahead of somebody who rates so strongly to call you with a worse hand that you are best served by leading big.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. I probably spend more time reading old high limit NL posts that I do reading this forum, and I think I'm taking concepts that make a great deal of sense on 150BB stacks and wrongly trying to apply them to SNGs. I don't think its bad to recognize dangerous spots, but I also think I need to start getting a touch more aggro in hands like this where I rate to be ahead the bulk of the time.

Thanks for all the replies. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your line is fine in a deep stack ring game, but in a SNG this is a spot where you rate so strongly to be ahead of somebody who rates so strongly to call you with a worse hand that you are best served by leading big.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. I probably spend more time reading old high limit NL posts that I do reading this forum, and I think I'm taking concepts that make a great deal of sense on 150BB stacks and wrongly trying to apply them to SNGs. I don't think its bad to recognize dangerous spots, but I also think I need to start getting a touch more aggro in hands like this where I rate to be ahead the bulk of the time.

Thanks for all the replies. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Think that's exactly it. You need huge emphasis on the fact that the guy's loose though. If he's gonna call with QJo overcards on a flop, you should be getting as much money in as possible early game with an overpair.... on the bubble you probably wanna stay away from this guy without premium hands.

I guess you don't play bad players as much as I do. How many of these guys exist in the 109s, cause now I'm considering moving up 20x.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise the flop because Villain will call me with anything under the sun, including hands that already have me smashed. I wasn't comfortable building a massive pot OOP with a vulnerable hand not having a clue where I'm at.

My goal in this hand was to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. I figured calling the flop and leading the turn was the best way to do this. I'm really not all that upset if an ace hits the turn and I have to release the hand because honestly, I may not even be ahead on this flop. It's not real co-ordinated so an idiot will happily underbet AA. I actually like the line I took on the flop and turn. The river is clearly pathetic.

Or, maybe not raising the flop is just plain bad. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
IMO if this is your true feeling then you should fold

Personally I'm raising the flop. Yeah, you may not be ahead but you probably are and if he comes over the top then you know. I really think that this hand is easy to play if you checkraise the flop and against a player this bad you stand to still take plenty of chips against a weaker hand (AK)

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t130) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif , 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif , 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP2 bets t50, Hero raises t185-235.

[/ QUOTE ]