Anything good here with 66 in SB?

[TripleH68]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP is a decent player. Since the table got short he has become more aggressive.
Preflop I was thinking 'Hmmmm, I haven't made a set in awhile." Please critique on all streets.

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks.

Turn: (3 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls.

River: (10 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

[istewart]

I think betting the flop is a better line. Given how you played it, I like it, but be careful if he caps the turn after checking the flop.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
MP is a decent player. Since the table got short he has become more aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider a 3-bet preflop. You would be much happier heads up with villain than in a 3-way pot.

[Runin]

I'm definitely betting the flop. With two opponents and two cards to the flush on the flop I don't want to give away any free cards.

[tiltaholic]

hi
when i am playing well i 3-bet preflop. when i am playing scared i call.

i probably bet the flop because of all the diamonds.

[DCWildcat]

[ QUOTE ]
I think betting the flop is a better line. Given how you played it, I like it, but be careful if he caps the turn after checking the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the first sentence, but I'm confused about the second. What do we have to fear here? We shouldn't play passively for the possibility of an overset.

[TomBrooks]

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I'm definitely betting the flop. With two opponents and two cards to the flush on the flop I don't want to give away any free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume hero was going for a c/r and whiffed. You have to be pretty damn sure the preflop raiser MP was going to bet. Hero guessed wrong this hand. MP doesn't look so aggressive as hero as indicated he read him.

[DCWildcat]

If it was a whiffed c/r, I'm not a fan. 3-handed on a crappy board, most fish will check with their AK....

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was a whiffed c/r, I'm not a fan. 3-handed on a crappy board, most fish will check with their AK....

[/ QUOTE ]
True, or certainly true too often to take a chance. Only if you have a read that MP will always bet after he raises preflop should you take this chance. Even a ManiDonk might check this flop through with his A9o or other marginal preflop raising hand.

[TripleH68]

Thanks for the replies.
I posted this hand because my blind play stinks.

I did not know what to do preflop. I guess a 3-bet to get it heads up would have been alright given my read.

As I played it I would usually throw out a bet on this flop, but did not want the action to go fold, call - then bet, fold on the turn. I also was not too afraid of giving a free card on this board - I have a set. If MP checks through I can peg him on overcards right? If I check-raise him and he just calls, overcards.

Funny thing is MP called the river here with QQ.
People are strange. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I also was not too afraid of giving a free card on this board (flop)- I have a set.

[/ QUOTE ]
The flop is two tone, meaning FDs could be out there; and two to a middle straight. There might be OESDs (BB could call with 97s or 75s) or gutshots (T9) out there. Your free card put two spades on the board. Be afraid, ...Be very afraid.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I also was not too afraid of giving a free card on this board - I have a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't like getting money in on the flop with a set?

[MATT111]

Preflop is pretty bad. It`s either raise or fold. I prefer raising.
Bet the flop.

I'd call preflop as you did.
I'd bet the flop.
Bet the turn, and call it down.

In your case, I'd never 3bet the turn. And I'd check the river.

Call me conservative, but I don't feel at ease with 3 spades and A-K there.

[MATT111]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call preflop as you did.


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You are in pretty bad shape against two opponents if you do not hit your set.
You cannot play this hand for set value only with just one opponent in.
Calling is the worst option here.

Well, if I don't hit the set, I'm likely to be gone.

But aren't I in worse shape if I raise and don't hit the set? Why is that good? is 6-6 likely to be the best hand up to the river? I can't believe that.

Before you tell me to read SSHE, I'll answer that I'm waiting for the delivery:). Meanwhile, I don't get it.

Cheers

Ah wait, you raise to chase out FDs! Ahaaaaaa /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]

Well, if I don't hit the set, I'm likely to be gone.

But aren't I in worse shape if I raise and don't hit the set? Why is that good? is 6-6 likely to be the best hand up to the river? I can't believe that.

Before you tell me to read SSHE, I'll answer that I'm waiting for the delivery:). Meanwhile, I don't get it.

Cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a couple of reasons to three bet this. 66 is a good hand in a short handed game. If you three bet the BB is likely to fold and 66 has a better chance winning unimproved heads up than it does against two players. OP also stated that MP had become aggressive since the table became short handed which means he could be open raising here with a big range of hands. A three bet from the small blind also gets people's attention if the flop misses him you will take down the pot a large% of the time with a bet. If you were just playing this hand for set value it would be correct to fold this pre flop.

You should fold it if you play it for set value you said.
Is it because you won't win enough money with it when you do get hit compared to all the (7) times you don't hit it?

you have to pay 2 small bets to see the flop, meaning you lose 14 SB. So you'd have to win more than 14BB on one hand for it to be at least profitable.

Is this correct?

this thread shouldnt be this long
lets sum this up...
YOU NEED TO BET FLOP Period
The prf raise is optional, and depends on your play, I like raise personally, but u can also play set bet, this wont ever kill a ton of profit either way.
Slow playing any set is a huge mistake that everyone on here has made 1 to many times before and at micros, people give u action with about anything.
good luck
cdl

[jrz1972]

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Well, if I don't hit the set, I'm likely to be gone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you should fold preflop. You're not being offered nearly the odds to you need to draw to your set.

FWIW I 3-bet this most of the time, especially given OP's read.

conservative

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
conservative

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a clear raise or fold pre flop.

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]

You should fold it if you play it for set value you said.
Is it because you won't win enough money with it when you do get hit compared to all the (7) times you don't hit it?
you have to pay 2 small bets to see the flop, meaning you lose 14 SB. So you'd have to win more than 14BB on one hand for it to be at least profitable.
Is this correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're on the right track. But if you're playing 66 only for its set value, ideally, you'll only pay 1 SB to see the flop. (Although sometimes you'll have to call a raise behind you.)

Basically, though, you're right. You need to win enough when your set hits to make up for all the times that you don't. So you want more people seeing the flop with you.

When it's a situation like this one, where everyone has folded to a raise, it's better to reraise and see if you can get rid of everyone else (if you're going to play). Then, with your pocket pair, you are at least even to win against anything other than a higher pocket pair. Villain will have to hit his card to beat you. Every additional player that you let in the pot likely creates approximately 6 more problem cards for you.

That's why everyone is saying this is "raise or fold". Worst case scenario with a low pocket pair is seeing the flop with 2-3 players against you. If you're not going to raise, fold and save your SB.

My $.02.

your right,
raise to isolate, u have AK beat currently, or fold because ur weak..
im banging the flop for sure though

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
your right,
raise to isolate, u have AK beat currently, or fold because ur weak..
im banging the flop for sure though

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have bet the flop the way the hand played out and after the flop checked through I certainly would have bet the turn.

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense. I'd have to think about what I do if I raise and overcards fall, especially face cards. But I guess the odds of winning against 7-8 is the same as winning against A-K, and everything in between.
So I guess you have to keep betting while you 'presumably' have the best hand. On the other hand though, the other guy could already have a higher pocket pair, so you'd be throwing money away.

I'll do some searching to know the following-against 1 and 2 players.
What are the odds of someone having a higher pocket pair
What are the odds of someone pairing 1 of the 2 overcards(which you can assume he has) so that you are beat.

Someone already said, it's close to a coin toss. If so, why bother reraising? It then entirely becomes read-dependant whether you raise or fold; and that is the most likely answer.
Poker then becomes a game of knowing when it is worth activating your reading skills, if you have any.

Sorry if all this seems obvious to all, but it sure is helping me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TeeVeeDude]

Grunching...

Bet that flop! You almost certainly have the best hand right now, make them pay to see the next card. Get the money in the middle while you are ahead.

so why did u post this?&gt; its in total agreement with what i just said, banging it betting, read my other posts on this thread

[WSOP Bound]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone already said, it's close to a coin toss. If so, why bother reraising?

[/ QUOTE ]

IF you re-raise and isolate the raiser it is a coin flop if he has overcards. With the read that MP has gotten more aggressive as the table get shorted handed it seems likely that he has overcards. There is a small amount of dead money in the pot (The BB), and it's actually not exactly a coin flip as you would be a slight favorite. If you do not raise to isolate that it becomes much less favorable for you since you are allowing in more cards that could very likely be overcards to your pair. Letting BB in with a hand as weak as 79o causes your equity here to drop from 54% to 30%. These numbers are slightly off because they don't factor in the times that MP has a bigger PP, but I think that's okay because they also don't take into account the times that you hit a set.

[MATT111]

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Someone already said, it's close to a coin toss. If so, why bother reraising?

[/ QUOTE ]

PP against overcards is 55-45.
But: This accounts if overcards are able to see the turn and river for free. On a favorable board you can make your opponent pay to see the turn and river cards.