Concept Illustration

[macdaddy991]

First, read this link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3170379&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) It has a lot of good stuff to say about being dominated and about the way ahead/way behind line.

As I was thinking about this idea, I came across this hand. IMO I think that it is a good example of the above link.

Villan is a 11/2 rock. His PF raises are usually scary.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

I planned on folding to a river raise.

I know to more experienced players and posters that this is old news. However I think that there are many new people on this forum that this will help. Just putting it out there.

[hemstock]

Why not raise the flop?

[macdaddy991]

Villan is a rock, he will fold anything less then AK or AA on this board. If I am ahead, he will fold and I won't extract any more value. If I am behind, then he can 3 bet and I am back at my original problem.

Read that link I posted. Jason T has some great stuff to say about this concept.

[PokerSparky]

It's the classic WA/WB line. Raising the flop does you nothing since against this opponent you're either throwing more money at the best hand or getting a worse hand to fold.

[Watain]

Nice post.

And the link is highly recomended.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I planned on folding to a river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

... because he is a rock and you *KNOW* what he will need to raise. If you always bet-fold on these WA/WB situations, you lose quite a bit on the river.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I planned on folding to a river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

... because he is a rock and you *KNOW* what he will need to raise. If you always bet-fold on these WA/WB situations, you lose quite a bit on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you avocating a check call on the river?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I planned on folding to a river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

... because he is a rock and you *KNOW* what he will need to raise. If you always bet-fold on these WA/WB situations, you lose quite a bit on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you avocating a check call on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. But I'm warning against the bet-fold fallacy that has plagued a whole bunch of players around here for a while. WA/WB and Clarkmeister have both suffered from being defined as river bet-fold situations. The bet part is correct, but it's not always correct to fold to a raise when running these lines.

In this case, bet-fold is correct because you have a read on villain. Against an unknown, I would probably bet-call.

[TripleH68]

Good advice here.

Anyone I see bet/folding the river gets my attention and notes for sure.
I rarely bluff, but will try it against you if I have seen you take this line more than once.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I planned on folding to a river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

... because he is a rock and you *KNOW* what he will need to raise. If you always bet-fold on these WA/WB situations, you lose quite a bit on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you avocating a check call on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. But I'm warning against the bet-fold fallacy that has plagued a whole bunch of players around here for a while. WA/WB and Clarkmeister have both suffered from being defined as river bet-fold situations. The bet part is correct, but it's not always correct to fold to a raise when running these lines.

In this case, bet-fold is correct because you have a read on villain. Against an unknown, I would probably bet-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I understand. In most cases I call too. This player was an exception however.

I agree that the bet/fold on the river has been overused. It is definately read dependant, and a lot of 3/4 tablers lose a lot of their reads. See this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/favlinker.php?Cat=&amp;Entry=129309&amp;F_Board=micro&amp;Thre ad=3158790&amp;partnumber=1&amp;postmarker=) for why that sucks to do.

I think the bet/fold to a raise line is much better used on the turn when there are more players in the hand. Heads up however, the call is enterily read dependant.

[DCWildcat]

Ugh

So at what VP$IP do we move from check/calling -&gt; bet/folding to a more aggressive line (i.e., raising the flop)? 15 VP$IP?

To make this kind of play I'd need to have a very large sample of hands on the villain.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]

To make this kind of play I'd need to have a very large sample of hands on the villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is 500+ ok?

Also, we wren't looking at VP$IP here, we are looking at the 2%PFR. What is villan holding here that justifies a PF raise? I think taking the WAWB line is fine here.

[DCWildcat]

1) Yes, 500 hands is more than enough /images/graemlins/smile.gif
2) I'm not advocating a preflop raise
3) Ignore my VP$IP question. What threshold of PF aggro do we use, then?

[macdaddy991]

In my limited poker experience, there are some players that simply never raise before the flop. They continue to limp with hands like JJ and AK, and others because they assume that they might get beaten, and would like to see a safe flop first.

When one of these identified players now does throw in the PF raise, one must be careful.

This paticular player had a 2% pfr. That is the equavalent of the old lady raising before the flop at a casino game.

As PFR gets higher, players can ajust their calling hands accordingly.

FWIW, against this player I would have mucked PF if I wern't in the BB

[DCWildcat]

I guess I'm not expressing myself clearly. Here's another shot:

At what point of PF aggression, stat-wise, do we decide to draw the line between raising vs. wa/wb'ing this flop? 5% PFR? 8% PFR? I'm asking for an estimate, not an explanation on why we play tightly against people who don't raise without monsters.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm not expressing myself clearly. Here's another shot:

At what point of PF aggression, stat-wise, do we decide to draw the line between raising vs. wa/wb'ing this flop? 5% PFR? 8% PFR? I'm asking for an estimate, not an explanation on why we play tightly against people who don't raise without monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

DavidC?

[DCWildcat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm not expressing myself clearly. Here's another shot:

At what point of PF aggression, stat-wise, do we decide to draw the line between raising vs. wa/wb'ing this flop? 5% PFR? 8% PFR? I'm asking for an estimate, not an explanation on why we play tightly against people who don't raise without monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

DavidC?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's that?