Lost in Las Vegas? Some 6-12 and 8-16 hands

[sam h]

Spent the weekend in Vegas and managed to win every session until Bloody Sunday in the Bellagio 8-16, where I gave it all back in failing to win a pot larger than 6 BBs in 7 hours. Oh well. I think I played pretty well throughout the weekend, but there are a few I may have played a little passively.

Hand #1: Shutting Down with KK

4 limpers to me and I raise CO+1 with red kings. Both blinds come along, everybody calls. Seven players. Flop comes Qc8c6d. SB (loudmouth semi-fish) bets, BB calls, UTG (good player) raises, folded to me, I three bet, SB 4 bets, BB folds, UTG folds, I call. Anybody cap? Turn is an offsuit 4, SB bets, I call. Anybody raise? River is an offsuit 9. SB bets. I call.

Hand #2: Small Pot, Small Laydown?

Very tight, very solid (VTVS) limps UTG on my left, two mediocre MPs limp along, the SB folds and I rap with QJo. Flop comes Q93r. I bet, VTVS raises, MMP1 calls, other folds. I decide that VTVS probably wouldn't make this move with a draw and that I am tied at best. I fold.

Hand #3: Good read or Good God!

Clueless fish that thinks he's tricky limps UTG, folded to me and I raise AcAd on button. SB (tight, straightforward, woman) calls, BB folds, UTG calls. Flop is KcQcQs. I see SB's hand clench up and then tap the table. UTG stares at me then bets. He has a king. What's my play? I called. SB checkraised. UTG called, and I folded.

Hand #4: Show me a Winner

I limp UTG with A7d. Two other limpers and both blinds come along. Flop is 875 with one diamond. Checked to me and I bet. Clueless fishie from hand three raises. All fold to me and I call. Turn is a 2, completing the rainbow. I check call. River is a jack. I check call.

[Tyler Durden]

I'll give these a whirl.

Did you play 6-12 at the Mirage? How was that game and how is it in general? I plan on playing that game a lot when I go to Vegas in May, and maybe also the Bellagio 8-16.

HAND ONE

With no info about the SB I've got this: He bet and raised at every opportunity. Unless he's reckless, I could probably find a spot somewhere to fold. He coldcalled your PF raise so what are his coldcalling standards? Then he capped the flop. If he's a good player he probably doesn't have two pair, so my guess is he has 88 or 66, possibly QQ but probably not. It seems like you're drawing to two outs on the turn and river.

HAND TWO

It's a draw-free board and that's important. But wait! What about JTs? That would be an openender! And isn't that like the most common limping hand? Not really but you know...
Well the guy who coldcalled, what's his deal? I think maybe he has JT, and the raiser has a Q, maybe QJ or KQ? Does everyone think that's right? Possibly QTs. But you're out of position the whole way and that gets ugly. Plus, the coldcaller. So...good fold I guess? Not sure.

I don't have time for Hands Three and Four right now.

[Homer]

Hand 1 - You played it fine. There's no way I'm folding my overpair in this fairly large pot against a loudmouth semi-fish who could be jamming with a flush/straight draw or top-pair. He probably has you beat, but I wouldn't be surprised to see AQ, 97c, 75c, T9c, JTc, J9c, etc.

Hand 2 - Good fold. You are likely outkicked.

Hand 3 - I would raise the flop and take it from there. If SB coldcalls you should check it through on the turn (or fold if bet into, unless you catch an A or club) and if he reraises you are probably toast, but have close to the odds required to chase your A and backdoor flush/straight outs. Given the way you played it, I think your fold is correct.

Hand 4 - Judgement call. Against some opponents I would call the flop raise and fold if I didn't catch anything on the turn. Against others I would call the flop raise and lead the turn. And against some I would do exactly what you did.

-- Homer

[J.R.]

Hand #1: Played fine, I think you're probably behind with this type of player and would call it down, I see no reason to raise heads up and I couldn't fold here.

Hand #2 Trust your read, but folding top pair OK kicker is not a good routine for success.

Hand #3 Trust your reads, but are you sure she doesn't have JcTc or AK? You are getting 12-1 and you close the action, drawing to two possible aces and a backdoor straight and abackdoor flush draw, which is about 4 outs, and you could possibly be ahead. The problem is any broadway card that gives you a straight draw may fill up the SB if she has a Q, since I think it is likely she has a broadway card with her Q given she is a tight player. It's close, and that's why I say trust your read if you have played with the SB enough to know she has at least a Q with a broadway kicker.

Hand #4 I would fold the turn, unless fishie really overplayed his hands. I equate fishie with straightforward garbage playing opponent who bets when he has it and calls when he has a draw.

[34TheTruth34]

Hand #2 is very interesting. My main question is what was the game like at that point? If your opponent is in fact very solid then he will be adjusting the hands he plays to the game conditions. First of all, regardless of the game conditions, he probably didn't limp in with any power hands that beat you, so let's rule out AA, KK, QQ, AQ. So now the next wave of hands that beat you are 99 and KQ. I don't think he would raise the flop with 99 because his hand is very powerful and nobody else can have much to call two bets cold with on a garbage flop like that. However, if the "mediocre players", as you describe them, are total calling stations then maybe he is raising with 99 here becuase he knows they'll pay off all the way if they have any piece of the board. I think KQ is clearly your biggest worry right now.

If the game was loose passive and VTVS realized this, he could also have limped with JTs, QTs, Q9s, T9s, A9s. He's probably putting you on a big blind queen (something like Q6o) and he figures you will lay down to a raise because you put him on a big queen. Your hand is stronger than it appears. I think I would at least see the turn and then reevaluate there.

[34TheTruth34]

But you're out of position the whole way and that gets ugly.

I think on this particular hand, if he calls the raise on the flop, then being out of position actually helps him. He needs information here. Let's say he calls the raise and an offsuit 4 comes on the turn. Do you like your hand now? Wouldn't that depend on how the turn played out? Let's say he checks again, VTVS bets again, but this time the LP caller raises. Obviously, he can safely fold then. Maybe he can safely fold even if VTVS bets the turn if a blank comes. Or maybe he can bet out on the turn and fold if raised. What if the turn pairs the 3 and he bets out? There are a lot of possibilities here, but I think being out of position isn't a major concern.

[sam h]

Thanks to everybody for the replies. Here's how it went down and later a brief comment on the 6-12 and 8-16 for Tyler.

Hand #1

I called down the loudmouth semifish SB, expecting to lose to 66, 88, or 86s. He showed 75o for the turned straight and then, adding insult to injury, demanded to see my hand.

It's hands like these that make me think calling mode is generally correct here. It's hard to put him on a draw because a reasonable player wouldn't 4 bet to get it heads up on the flop. But this guy wasn't too reasonable.

Hand #2

The turn was a jack, which would have given me top two. UTG bet out and was called. The river was an 8 for a final board of Q93J8. UTG checked and folded to MP's bet.

I'm still unsure about this one. It appears that my read was correct and I was drawing to three outs against KQ and then UTG mucked, figuring his opponent must have either two pair or the straight. But I'm pretty swayed by the truth's rationale that it is worth calling and reevaluating on the turn.

Hand #3

The board brought Jc2c, with the action going check-call, check-check. SB won with AQh and UTG flashed KJs. I would have won with my Ac, though it turns out I had only one other out in the As.

I'm still not really sure about this play. The one thing that it did depend on was my read that the SB would not make this move without a Q.

Hand #4: Fishie turned over Q6s for the busted straight draw and I took it down.

Comments on 6-12 Mirage and 8-16 Bellagio

I thought both of these games were pretty beatable, with the Bellagio a bit tougher. Your standard lineup (stronger during the day by far) includes a couple pretty solid locals and sometimes a very good one. While I didn't find any crazy games with more than 2 or 3 ultra-loose fish types, I did find that the players in the middle tend to be pretty easy to play against - not too tricky, very poor value betters, etc. There were several situations in which I made pretty good hands that turned out to be second best and was just called down, losing near the minimum possible given the situation.