08-18-2005, 07:05 PM
Hi everyone,
I've been lurking here for a couple months and I already feel like I've learned a lot. After starting out at the $10s on Party I've moved up to the $20s and have been making a small profit (though I've only played a couple hundred so far). But I feel at sea lots of times after the flop. Maybe you guys could give me some feedback on how I played this hand?
It was the first hand of a $20, so everyone had 800 chips. The guy in 3rd position limped in and the guy right after him limped in also. The next guy folded and I limped in with AdQh in 6th position (should I have raised preflop to narrow the field & try to buy the button?). The button called behind me, the SB completed, and the BB checked.
So 6 to the flop, and the pot is 90.
The flop was Ac Jh 8h. Everyone checked to me, and I bet 60. I thought it was likely that I had the best hand, so I bet to charge draws, to get some chips from weaker hands, and to start getting those weaker hands committed to the pot (how are those reasons for betting here?). Only the button and the 3rd position limper called. I thought it was more likely than not that 2 pair or a set would have either bet out or raised on this flop, so I felt pretty good about my hand after that action. I thought my opponents were most likely to be holding weaker aces, flush draws, straight draws, or perhaps a Jack. Since the guy in early position check-called, I thought he was the more likely of the two to be on a draw. I also thought that if one of my two opponents DID have 2 pair or a set, it was more likely to be the guy on the button -- I figured that the EP guy would have check-raised after seeing two people put money in behind him.
So, it was 3 to the turn and the pot was 270. The turn was the very safe-looking 6s. I really liked this card because it neither completed any draws nor created any at-all-likely new ones. EP checked, and I bet 150. I didn't want to bet less than that because I wanted to charge my opponents in the likely event that one of them had a draw. But I didn't want to bet more because I didn't want a hand like A9 to go away. I also thought that giving good implied odds to the draw wouldn't be so terrible here since I had position on the guy who was more likely to be drawing, and if a scare card came on the river he would have to reveal his hand or risk getting it checked through. Anyway....button called, and EP folded.
So, HU to the river, and the pot is now 570. Both my opponent and I have only 575 chips left. The river was the Ts, so the final board was
Ac Jh 8h (6s Ts).
I wasn't happy to see this card, partly because it completed a couple straight draws, but mostly because I thought AT was the most likely of the weaker Aces that may have been calling me down. I wasn't sure whether I should bet. On the one hand, I thought it was very unlikely that he would bet with a weaker made hand if I checked, given how passively he had played up to this point. On the other hand, if he had been calling with a flush draw, the size of the pot might induce him to make a desperation bluff, especially since it looks like I may have been semi-bluffing with a draw which has now missed. But then again, if I check he will also make a strong bet with a rivered 2 pair/straight/slowplayed 2-pair/set, so while I might snap some bluffs I'll also pay off a lot of better hands. If he pushes I'll be getting 2:1 on my call....are those good enough odds? Let's say he will always push with 2 pair or better. Since this is a $20 and he limped in on the button, we can't discount J8, so his 2 pair combos are: AJ (6 ways), AT (6 ways), A8 (6 ways), J8 (9 ways), A6 (6 ways). It's also remotely possible that he might have a set of 8s (3 ways). And, if he had been drawing with T9h, he now has a straight (1 way). Granted, many of these possibilities aren't likely given the betting, but they still add up to a daunting 37 ways of having me beat, and the missed flush draw possibilities that didn't backdoor a straight add up to maybe 3 or 4 ways at most. It doesn't help that I have the Qh.
Sooo....I didn't think I could call a push if I checked, but I did think that he would call me with most of his weaker hands in this large pot if I made another small bet, so I bet out 150. If he raised me all-in, I thought I could safely fold.
What he did instead, though, was min-raise me. I hated this! It was now only 150 for me to call into a 1020 pot, so I was getting almost 7:1 odds to call.
But there were 2 problems:
1, unless he was running a clever bluff, I just didn't see how he could be raising me with *anything* I could beat. Surely he would be expecting me to call the small raise after the fair amount of interest I'd shown in the pot, and how could he figure to be ahead unless he had at least AK? It really didn't look like a "Post-Oak bluff" because he hadn't been representing a strong hand all the way only to top it off with a "milking" bet on the end.
2, if I called and lost, I would be down to only 275 chips. In other words, I'd basically be forced to push/fold starting in level 2. Good hands are hard to come by, and calling standards vs. pushes in the early levels seem much looser, so I really didn't relish this prospect. If I folded, I would still have 425 -- not a lot to be sure, but an extra couple orbits' worth of maneuverability.
So, I figured that calling his raise had better be considerably better than break-even if I was gonna run the risk of getting crippled. I'm getting (rounded off) 7:1 odds. If I figure to be a 6:1 dog to win, I'm only profiting about 18 chips on average. A 5:1 dog, 46 chips or so. A 4:1 dog, about 85 chips. I felt like I needed to be no worse than a 5:1 dog, and probably closer to a 4:1 dog, to make calling here a good idea. I didn't think I had those odds, so I folded.
Wow this post has gotten long. I thank you heartily if you made it all the way here. In return, you can berate me as much as you like! In fact, please berate me. I will likely learn something.
Thanks again,
Try
I've been lurking here for a couple months and I already feel like I've learned a lot. After starting out at the $10s on Party I've moved up to the $20s and have been making a small profit (though I've only played a couple hundred so far). But I feel at sea lots of times after the flop. Maybe you guys could give me some feedback on how I played this hand?
It was the first hand of a $20, so everyone had 800 chips. The guy in 3rd position limped in and the guy right after him limped in also. The next guy folded and I limped in with AdQh in 6th position (should I have raised preflop to narrow the field & try to buy the button?). The button called behind me, the SB completed, and the BB checked.
So 6 to the flop, and the pot is 90.
The flop was Ac Jh 8h. Everyone checked to me, and I bet 60. I thought it was likely that I had the best hand, so I bet to charge draws, to get some chips from weaker hands, and to start getting those weaker hands committed to the pot (how are those reasons for betting here?). Only the button and the 3rd position limper called. I thought it was more likely than not that 2 pair or a set would have either bet out or raised on this flop, so I felt pretty good about my hand after that action. I thought my opponents were most likely to be holding weaker aces, flush draws, straight draws, or perhaps a Jack. Since the guy in early position check-called, I thought he was the more likely of the two to be on a draw. I also thought that if one of my two opponents DID have 2 pair or a set, it was more likely to be the guy on the button -- I figured that the EP guy would have check-raised after seeing two people put money in behind him.
So, it was 3 to the turn and the pot was 270. The turn was the very safe-looking 6s. I really liked this card because it neither completed any draws nor created any at-all-likely new ones. EP checked, and I bet 150. I didn't want to bet less than that because I wanted to charge my opponents in the likely event that one of them had a draw. But I didn't want to bet more because I didn't want a hand like A9 to go away. I also thought that giving good implied odds to the draw wouldn't be so terrible here since I had position on the guy who was more likely to be drawing, and if a scare card came on the river he would have to reveal his hand or risk getting it checked through. Anyway....button called, and EP folded.
So, HU to the river, and the pot is now 570. Both my opponent and I have only 575 chips left. The river was the Ts, so the final board was
Ac Jh 8h (6s Ts).
I wasn't happy to see this card, partly because it completed a couple straight draws, but mostly because I thought AT was the most likely of the weaker Aces that may have been calling me down. I wasn't sure whether I should bet. On the one hand, I thought it was very unlikely that he would bet with a weaker made hand if I checked, given how passively he had played up to this point. On the other hand, if he had been calling with a flush draw, the size of the pot might induce him to make a desperation bluff, especially since it looks like I may have been semi-bluffing with a draw which has now missed. But then again, if I check he will also make a strong bet with a rivered 2 pair/straight/slowplayed 2-pair/set, so while I might snap some bluffs I'll also pay off a lot of better hands. If he pushes I'll be getting 2:1 on my call....are those good enough odds? Let's say he will always push with 2 pair or better. Since this is a $20 and he limped in on the button, we can't discount J8, so his 2 pair combos are: AJ (6 ways), AT (6 ways), A8 (6 ways), J8 (9 ways), A6 (6 ways). It's also remotely possible that he might have a set of 8s (3 ways). And, if he had been drawing with T9h, he now has a straight (1 way). Granted, many of these possibilities aren't likely given the betting, but they still add up to a daunting 37 ways of having me beat, and the missed flush draw possibilities that didn't backdoor a straight add up to maybe 3 or 4 ways at most. It doesn't help that I have the Qh.
Sooo....I didn't think I could call a push if I checked, but I did think that he would call me with most of his weaker hands in this large pot if I made another small bet, so I bet out 150. If he raised me all-in, I thought I could safely fold.
What he did instead, though, was min-raise me. I hated this! It was now only 150 for me to call into a 1020 pot, so I was getting almost 7:1 odds to call.
But there were 2 problems:
1, unless he was running a clever bluff, I just didn't see how he could be raising me with *anything* I could beat. Surely he would be expecting me to call the small raise after the fair amount of interest I'd shown in the pot, and how could he figure to be ahead unless he had at least AK? It really didn't look like a "Post-Oak bluff" because he hadn't been representing a strong hand all the way only to top it off with a "milking" bet on the end.
2, if I called and lost, I would be down to only 275 chips. In other words, I'd basically be forced to push/fold starting in level 2. Good hands are hard to come by, and calling standards vs. pushes in the early levels seem much looser, so I really didn't relish this prospect. If I folded, I would still have 425 -- not a lot to be sure, but an extra couple orbits' worth of maneuverability.
So, I figured that calling his raise had better be considerably better than break-even if I was gonna run the risk of getting crippled. I'm getting (rounded off) 7:1 odds. If I figure to be a 6:1 dog to win, I'm only profiting about 18 chips on average. A 5:1 dog, 46 chips or so. A 4:1 dog, about 85 chips. I felt like I needed to be no worse than a 5:1 dog, and probably closer to a 4:1 dog, to make calling here a good idea. I didn't think I had those odds, so I folded.
Wow this post has gotten long. I thank you heartily if you made it all the way here. In return, you can berate me as much as you like! In fact, please berate me. I will likely learn something.
Thanks again,
Try