Did JoeU misplay?

[34TheTruth34]

I get moved to the main 3/6 game and JTG51 and JoeU are there. JTG has an incredible mountain of chips in front of him (this was after his 3 hands, 75BB post). I immediately start busting his balls about how many chips he has. He tells me he bought in for a grand and that he's losing. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif I tell the table that I had Illinois in the Final Four. They all laugh at me. Good times.

Anyway, I raise UTG with Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif. JoeU 3-bets, uh oh trouble. Major any-two calling station goes all in for $10, we call.

Flop 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I test him with a bet on the flop, he raises. I put him on AA, KK , A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif, or A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif. I guess JJ or TT could be a possiblity.

Turn 7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I check, intending to fold. He checks behind. Hmmm...

River T /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I check, not knowing whether I will raise, call or fold to his bet. He checks behind again. I start to think I missed some bets. He flips over KK with the king of hearts for a king high flush!



Another hand where I was saved some money:

Randomly Aggressive Player (RAP) open raises in MP. He really has no clue about hand values, often making plays like raising limpers on any two high cards like KTs and QJ. Tight Passive Lady (TPL) calls on the button. She only plays good cards, but rarely bets or raises. I know she's in there on something solid because she called a raise. I'm in BB with KK. I 3-bet 90% sure that I'm way ahead (though the possibility of TPL having AA has gone up slightly because of the raise).

Flop Q-J-8 rainbow

I bet out, RAP raises me. TPL cold calls, scaring me. I smooth call, hoping to see something not so bad come off on the turn.

Turn 4, completing the rainbow

Beautiful. I bet out and they both call.

River T

I get that feeling and check (is this paranoid? do you bet here?). They both check behind. I guess I missed another couple of bets. I'm about to show my hand when TPL shows QQ!

Comments?

[Homer]

Hand 1

I think the turn play is debatable, since he has the K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif (without the Kh it is definitely a bet). If he bets, you will call with a lesser pocket pair (reason to bet), will fold overcards without a heart (reason to check and hope you bluff the river), and will call with overcards with a heart (Ah or Qh...reason to bet). All-in-all, I'm fairly certain I would bet in this case.

On the river, he has an easy bet. You wouldn't check the river with the Ah, since there is no guarantee he will bet (since he checked behind on the turn). He should bet knowing he has the best hand.

Hand 2

Obviously, she missed a lot of bets. How tight is she? Would she be hanging around on the river with less than a pair of K's? With the T coming you can't beat many hands now (against this opponent). 99, TT, and AK got there. All you beat is AQ/AJ.

-- Homer

[34TheTruth34]

On the river, he has an easy bet. You wouldn't check the river with the Ah, since there is no guarantee he will bet (since he checked behind on the turn). He should bet knowing he has the best hand.

Yeah, you're right that doesn't make any sense. Now that I think about it, maybe I got some of the board cards wrong or something. They left shortly after this hand and I played the rest of the day, so maybe one of them remembers the hand better than I do and can correct me if I'm wrong.

[JoeU]

I do remember the hand. When you raised preflop, I put you on at least a good ace. My mistake was not betting on the turn on that hand. I thought the river wasn't the safest bet because it was possible that your good ace was the A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif and I was dead. If I bet the river and get raised, I have to call the raise witht he 2nd nut flush. If I check behind, it doesn't cost me anything, especially if I am right about the ace. I think the river bet was debatable, but I definitely missed a bet on the turn.

Good to see you there. Hope to see you again soon.

Joe

[Homer]

"I think the river bet was debatable, but I definitely missed a bet on the turn."

I think the exact opposite is true. You have a no-brainer bet on the river, imho. Thetruth wouldn't check the Ah on the river after you checked behind on the turn, most likely. His lack of a bet indicates that he doesn't have an A-high flush. He might have the Qh or an overpair (smaller than yours), though, in which case he will call a river bet. If I am checkraised on the river I am going to fold. If he has the guts to checkraise the river without the Ah (which means he's doing it with the Qh at most), he deserves to win the hand.

-- Homer

[JTG51]

So that was you? You should have introduced yourself. We were there for such a short time with you I'm not even sure I'll recognize you the next time. I was wondering why some random guy was so interested in my chips. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Joe and I talked about that hand later. I told him I thought he missed an easy bet on the turn. When you bet the flop into him, I thought there was a great chance you had QQ, JJ, or TT. Once the turn got checked around, I think he had an easy river bet also.

He may have missed a bet or two on this hand (I'm assuming only one since you'd have a real hard time calling a turn and river bet) but Joe has gotten much better at making value bets.

[JoeU]

but Joe has gotten much better at making value bets.

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm sure that's what you weren't thinking when I made that bet in the river when an A came and I had pocket KK in the must move. /forums/images/icons/blush.gif If I could remember that hand, I'd post it, but senility is starting to set in!!!

Joe

[34TheTruth34]

So that was you? You should have introduced yourself

I wouldn't introduce myself at the table. You guys left very quickly after that, literally like one trip around the table. Then I thought I would say hi while you were in line cashing out (lord knows the line is long and slow enough that I would have had the time), but once I moved to a new seat and got situated, I was too lazy to get up. I'll find ya next time...

[34TheTruth34]

I think the exact opposite is true. You have a no-brainer bet on the river, imho. Thetruth wouldn't check the Ah on the river after you checked behind on the turn, most likely

Absolutely. I wouldn't check the A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif on the turn either /forums/images/icons/smile.gif



If I am checkraised on the river I am going to fold. If he has the guts to checkraise the river without the Ah (which means he's doing it with the Qh at most), he deserves to win the hand.

huh? Why would I checkraise the river if I had the A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif? I would bet the river 100% of the time. You're right that there's no guarantee that he'll bet the river (almost no chance) since he checked behind on the turn.

So here's what I was thinking: I've ruled out any of the AK/AQ hands (either with or without hearts) for JoeU. At this point, I'm pretty sure he has AA or KK without a heart. He doesn't necessarily know if I have a heart or not. So I check the river. If he checks back, fine free showdown is good for me, since I feel I'm losing the hand. If he bets, I may check-raise since he is one of the few players at the table who could lay down here (not an insult at all, most 3/6ers just shrug and call when they get raised on the river even though the opponent couldn't possibly be bluffing), but most likely I'll fold. If I did have the Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif, I certainly wouldn't check-raise with it, I would be probably 50/50 whether I would bet or just check-call. I can't honestly say, since I didn't have it. I think I'd lean towards betting just because he checked behind on the turn.

[Homer]

HJ: "If I am checkraised on the river I am going to fold. If he has the guts to checkraise the river without the Ah (which means he's doing it with the Qh at most), he deserves to win the hand."

34TheTruth34: "huh? Why would I checkraise the river if I had the A ? I would bet the river 100% of the time. You're right that there's no guarantee that he'll bet the river (almost no chance) since he checked behind on the turn."

HJ: Joe stated that he would have to pay off a river checkraise if you happened to do so. My point was that you would be unlikely to checkraise due to his lack of bet on the turn, so he shouldn't worry about being checkraised. If he bets and you do happen to checkraise, then you probably have the Ah because it would take real balls to checkraise with only the Qh (then again it takes balls to check the nuts on the river when there is no guarantee he is going to bet). So essentially, you'll probably call with an pocket pair most of the time, and on the rare instance you do checkraise, he can safely fold....hence, he shouldn't worry about it and should just bet.

-- Homer