Checking a dangerous flop for info

[ChuckNorris]

I won't comment my play yet since I have tables open. Please share your thoughts.


Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: JLBISHOP ( $945 )
Seat 9: Mulperi ( $985 )
Seat 5: beefroast ( $1210 )
Seat 6: twolipps ( $1040 )
Seat 4: TrueSkate ( $975 )
Seat 1: jennasdown ( $1120 )
Seat 7: franzlaw ( $975 )
Seat 2: Norman___ ( $790 )
Seat 10: Toptwo ( $1000 )
Seat 8: DoYouSeaWhy ( $960 )
Blinds(10/15)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mulperi [ Ks Qd ]
jennasdown calls [15].
Norman___ folds.
JLBISHOP raises [30].
TrueSkate folds.
beefroast calls [30].
twolipps calls [30].
franzlaw folds.
DoYouSeaWhy folds.
Mulperi calls [20].
Toptwo folds.
jennasdown calls [15].

** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 9h, Qs ]
Mulperi checks.
jennasdown checks.
JLBISHOP checks.
beefroast checks.
twolipps bets [80].
Mulperi raises [250].
jennasdown folds.
JLBISHOP calls [250].
beefroast folds.
twolipps calls [170].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 7h ]
Mulperi checks.
JLBISHOP checks.
twolipps is all-In [760]
Mulperi folds.
JLBISHOP is all-In [665]

** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
JLBISHOP shows [ 9s, 9c ] three of a kind, nines.
twolipps shows [ Qc, Tc ] a pair of queens.
twolipps wins 95 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of queens.
JLBISHOP wins 2245 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, nines.

Check raising for info? That's an interesting play. My question is: Do you think that betting out a certain amount, say, the pot, could have gotten you the same information, but cheaper? Betting t150 on the flop, I'm sure a strong hand will raise you, especially with so many possible straight draws. The only hand that wouldn't raise you would probably be the straight, but even that straight is susceptible to being outdrawn by hands that would call preflop.

I reread my own post and concluded that I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'll wait till more people answer this. Another question, why did you post the results?

[ChuckNorris]

My decision to raise was based on the weak action. By checking I had the possibility of getting rid of the hand for free if the other players showed strength.

I posted the results just because I was too lazy to remove them. I think that's just irrelevant.

[microbet]

Seems like the check-raise is pretty effective at letting you know what's going on. I would think you could have raised to 200. The fold on the turn is good, imo.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like the check-raise is pretty effective at letting you know what's going on. I would think you could have raised to 200.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't want to give the bettor the odds to draw to a straight.

[mikeyworm]

i like this play a lot considering the circumstances. my question is what do people do when you only get one caller? fire again on the turn or check and see the action?

[microbet]

Sounds reasonable, but not giving him odds to the straight isn't the only consideration. On the occassions no one has a better hand than you and someone is drawing to a straight you would lose Sklansky dollars if the draw calls, but on occassions where someone is ahead of you (and you aren't going to get rid of them) the more you bet the more Sklansky dollars you lose.

[ChuckNorris]

No one had yet represented strength so I think I need to consider myself pretty good here and try to protect my hand.

[Nacarno]

Do you guys think check-folding is too weak here? In my experience this type of flop is the kind that draws a lot of check raises either with a pair and a draw or two pair or anything better. With that in mind, even though everyone has checked, the bet has to represent some real strength to open up action to everyone that just checked, especially in an unraised pot. Your position relative to the raiser puts you in a perfect spot to get sandwiched by someone slow playing a set or a made straight. Being out of position, I think any action you take gives you pretty horrible reverse implied odds.

[Nacarno]

Looking back, I see that the pot was raised, but not by much so I still think you have a very marginal holding with KQ. QJ9 is not the type of flop I'm looking to build a pot with OOP.

[jedinite]

I'll weigh in as another who would bet out T100 or so, and fold to a push or significant re-raise.

Once you decided to check:

With five people seeing the flop and T150 in the pot, at this level a bet of T80 likely represents a weak queen to me and you are way ahead. So I understand making the check-raise.

But still, with five people seeing a scary flop like this, you're risking too many chips early with a TPGK. I'm not sure what level you're playing, but I also beware the danger of running a fancy play at a level where people aren't going to respect/understand it - I don't think the check-raise works here at anything less than the $55.

Since the raiser is directly to your right, you're not gaining a lot of information with the check-raise: you've got three other players who checked, and anyone slowplaying a monster - i.e. a set of nines /images/graemlins/smile.gif - hasn't had a chance to respond to the weak bet. If you were last to act, I can see the check raise, but in this situation its effectively the same as if you'd led out on the flop, except you're costing yourself a lot more chips. Just re-inforces the "lead the flop" strategy IMO.

I guess if you're really intent on gaining information here I'd call the T80 and see what the rest of the field does, then lead out at the turn if a favorable card hits.

Edited to correct the fact that I don't know what level we're talking about here...