2+2ers suck

[baronzeus]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and DCWGaming's post in HUSH has further inspired me.

Being on 2+2 does not make you the best player at your table. You have no right to tell people what you think the "right" play is, or tell them that they suck, even if it is very clear for you.

Today, a LAG bluff check-raised me on the turn with 36o on an 9259 board when I had AK and I called down to be shown his hand. For the rest of the session, I had to pay off his turn raises with good showdownable hands, and although it only happened 4 more times, I lost 3 of those 4 times and split the 4th time. He either made a metagame move against me because he could tell I was observant, or he got lucky. Whatever it was, I definitely felt like he outplayed me.

Another hand, a TAG check-raised me on both the turn and the rivers because I had top trips top-kicker to his bottom full house. I got owned because I was aggressive just like most other 2+2ers would be.

The fact of the matter is, unless you are Schneids or Dcifrths or some other random person who has played millions of hands and can read hands like no one else, there are tons of players out there that can beat you and play better postflop than you. Some of the LAGs on party are the best players I have seen.

This post may be a complete rambling. But whenever a 2+2er at my table gets sucked out on and berates the [censored] out of a LAG telling them how much they suck, I cringe. Get rid of your damn superiority complex. In the grand scheme of things, you and I are just tiny pawns in the world of poker, and we have a long way to go. Just being on 2+2 doesn't make you god.

[poker-penguin]

Nice post.

I admit I suck, thankfully I can usually find games with people who suck worse. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kyro]

You're probably right. But seriously, do you really think some a-hole reading this is going to be like "OMG, HE'S RIGHT!!!"

You posted this for your own personal satisfaction. Admit it.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably right. But seriously, do you really think some a-hole reading this is going to be like "OMG, HE'S RIGHT!!!"

You posted this for your own personal satisfaction. Admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't understand how I get satisfaction out of this. I really think 2+2ers should stop berating people who they think are worse. 2+2ers (including me) overestimate themselves to a great extent, and it's a leak.

[snowlarbear]

haha well that goes both ways too. i've been at tables where a LAG sucks out and starts talking junk.

basically, no matter how you play, you can be an ass. such is life.

[etizzle]

Very few of the better LHE players on 2+2 berate bad players. If someone is berating a fish it is pretty likely they are struggling overall.

[Non_Comformist]

WRONG!

I became a god shortly after joining 2+2. You should refer to me as yulaspzz god of monkeys.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Very few of the better LHE players on 2+2 berate bad players. If someone is berating a fish it is pretty likely they are struggling overall.

[/ QUOTE ]


It's not only the berating. A lot of 2+2ers think they are entitled to a good winrate because they are "great players" who post on 2+2. I thought so too until last month.

[tripdad]

any player, 2+2er or not, who thinks they are beyond vast improvement, is doomed to certain failure.

while a dedicated member of a poker forumn who strives to get better may have an edge over average competition, they are a member of a forumn BECAUSE they want to improve their game. indeed, if they are here just to boast about their mad skills, they are wasting their time. many people here are too smart to fall for that nonsense.

cheers!

[Rosie5]

Put this in mid-high stakes hold em'. the more money > the more delusional people get about how good they are

Most people here are probably like "uhh I use common sense to beat <low stakes game here>, I have no delusions about how good I am, nor do I have an ego"

Plus who isn't a 2+2'er now, I'm pretty sure B_buddy even has an account here /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SoftcoreRevolt]

I think a much bigger leak right now, at least in 2/4 and below is 2+2ers overestimating their opponents and being much too timid in attacking. While the ego is there and could very much hurt a player as the limits increase and play becomes trickier, there is just far too much credit given to a tricky looking play which is clearly a mistake on the part of the "trickster."

Obviously someone should not be making decisions based on one hand, but checking the hand histories of key hands with LAGish opponents can be very telling as to their true nature.

[speirs]

[ QUOTE ]
any player, 2+2er or not, who thinks they are beyond vast improvement, is doomed to certain failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

That about covers it.

[Danenania]

This kinda seems like you are projecting your own shortcomings onto all of 2+2.

[charlie_t_jr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very few of the better LHE players on 2+2 berate bad players. If someone is berating a fish it is pretty likely they are struggling overall.

[/ QUOTE ]


It's not only the berating. A lot of 2+2ers think they are entitled to a good winrate because they are "great players" who post on 2+2. I thought so too until last month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously you thought wrong. But he's right, most good players have moved on from the berating of other players.

One question though, as a long time "registered" member, and very sporadic poster, how the hell does this happen:

[ QUOTE ]
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 2861

[/ QUOTE ]

When do you play?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
This kinda seems like you are projecting your own shortcomings onto all of 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even know what this means.

Edit: Are you suggesting I berate fish? Or that I think I am the best player at the table? Neither of these things has happened in a long time for me.

[XXXNoahXXX]

I know that when it comes to the MVP posters on here that I'm sure we could all rattle off from memory there are some big exceptions, but I agree that having a title of "Carpal\tunnel" on 2+2 isn't some guarentee that a person will be a great player. When I'm watching/playing tables I often am curious whose a 2+2er and do some archive snooping, and I've always found it funny when people with <100 posts are at the same table, and often outplaying those with 2000+ posts on here. I by no means consider myself a great player or 2+2 poster, but I sometimes wish there was some sort a true post # count. Like I have 5000 posts, but my true number is 10 because 4990 have been direct quotes, "nh", jokes, insults, etc. and only 10 have been worthwhile posts. People on 2+2 need to realize that LAG is not a condemnation but a playing style that can prove very profitable for the few that can master it. He sucked out and you paid him off because that is his game. LAG players rely on catching draws and intimidation and favorable flops, doesn't make them any less of player because they gamble. 2+2 is a wonderful resource for players, but people can, have, and will continue to do it on their own with varyuing styles, etc.. And berating fish for bad play is simply stupid, especially online. How much effect can size 6 font on a little screen have unless you know them personally? Like the saying goes, "arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. even if you win, you're still retarded."

[MEbenhoe]

This is nothing but another don't be a table coach post.

[baronzeus]

I like your analysis here. One thing "experienced" posters think they can do is flame other posters because of their superiority complex. I have already been flamed several times in this post by "experienced" posters, but I really don't care. I was trying to make a point about superiority complexes and they've further demonstrated my point.

[magiluke]

I think that's just the best thing I ever read... Your post should be bronzed...

[waffle]

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2290/chat3kc.gif

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
"arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. even if you win, you're still retarded."


[/ QUOTE ]

nh













<font color="white"> just to boost my post count so someone will think I'm the best poker player in the world. </font> /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Perseus]

So are you saying I should stop worshipping myself?

You're crazy

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact of the matter is, unless you are Schneids or Dcifrths or some other random person who has played millions of hands and can read hands like no one else,

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny you should mention those two guys for hand reading, add in Steve Giufre and they are the three best I know.


Ive gotten prety much numb anymore to the beats, its hard to get to, but when the suckouts come, just concentrate on making good decisions every hand, every session. Things work out in the end.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Today, a LAG bluff check-raised me on the turn with 36o on an 9259 board when I had AK and I called down to be shown his hand. For the rest of the session, I had to pay off his turn raises with good showdownable hands, and although it only happened 4 more times, I lost 3 of those 4 times and split the 4th time. He either made a metagame move against me because he could tell I was observant, or he got lucky. Whatever it was, I definitely felt like he outplayed me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like he adjusted and you didn't. When he started to show down good hands, did you start thinking about folding?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Another hand, a TAG check-raised me on both the turn and the rivers because I had top trips top-kicker to his bottom full house. I got owned because I was aggressive just like most other 2+2ers would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you suggest you do instead? Check behind? Bet/Fold?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
The fact of the matter is, unless you are Schneids or Dcifrths or some other random person who has played millions of hands and can read hands like no one else, there are tons of players out there that can beat you and play better postflop than you. Some of the LAGs on party are the best players I have seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of the LAGs on party are 2p2ers. Ask Entity about his 5/10 6m stats /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
This post may be a complete rambling. But whenever a 2+2er at my table gets sucked out on and berates the [censored] out of a LAG telling them how much they suck, I cringe. Get rid of your damn superiority complex. In the grand scheme of things, you and I are just tiny pawns in the world of poker, and we have a long way to go. Just being on 2+2 doesn't make you god.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think SOP in these situations is to post their screen name.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
In the grand scheme of things, you and I are just tiny pawns in the world of poker, and we have a long way to go. Just being on 2+2 doesn't make you god.

[/ QUOTE ]

This coming from a guy named Zeus...

[dogmeat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This kinda seems like you are projecting your own shortcomings onto all of 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even know what this means.

Edit: Are you suggesting I berate fish? Or that I think I am the best player at the table? Neither of these things has happened in a long time for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know what that means? Reread your first-third posts. If you don't get it then, you need help.

FWIW, please don't speak for me. I read/post on 2+2 for information and fun - it's not my life, and I don't affiliate myself in any way with the site.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't know what that means? Reread your first-third posts. If you don't get it then, you need help.

FWIW, please don't speak for me. I read/post on 2+2 for information and fun - it's not my life, and I don't affiliate myself in any way with the site.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are taking this post the wrong way. If it doesn't apply to you, then there's no reason to get defensive and offended.

On another note, although it was a problem of mine a bit back in time, I've gotten over it. I also think it's not just me. I think Daneania was trying to say that it's only my problem, but I know of many posters here who have this problem, whether or not Daneania agrees.

[spamuell]

The point is that the overwhelmingly vast majority of good, winning players don't berate others and that the beraters are generally marginal winners at best who lack the fundemental understanding of poker required to be a significant winner and not tilt. It's not 2+2ers who suck (at least not for the reason you suggest), it's players who berate others, regardless of whether or not they post here.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't know what that means? Reread your first-third posts. If you don't get it then, you need help.

FWIW, please don't speak for me. I read/post on 2+2 for information and fun - it's not my life, and I don't affiliate myself in any way with the site.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are taking this post the wrong way. If it doesn't apply to you, then there's no reason to get defensive and offended.

On another note, although it was a problem of mine a bit back in time, I've gotten over it. I also think it's not just me. I think Daneania was trying to say that it's only my problem, but I know of many posters here who have this problem, whether or not Daneania agrees.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

It's not only the berating. A lot of 2+2ers think they are entitled to a good winrate because they are "great players" who post on 2+2. I thought so too until last month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Baronzeus
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 2894


Stop preaching.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't know what that means? Reread your first-third posts. If you don't get it then, you need help.

FWIW, please don't speak for me. I read/post on 2+2 for information and fun - it's not my life, and I don't affiliate myself in any way with the site.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are taking this post the wrong way. If it doesn't apply to you, then there's no reason to get defensive and offended.

On another note, although it was a problem of mine a bit back in time, I've gotten over it. I also think it's not just me. I think Daneania was trying to say that it's only my problem, but I know of many posters here who have this problem, whether or not Daneania agrees.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

It's not only the berating. A lot of 2+2ers think they are entitled to a good winrate because they are "great players" who post on 2+2. I thought so too until last month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Baronzeus
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 2894


Stop preaching.

[/ QUOTE ]


I admit this post is kind of lame in several ways. I hope the mods lock it.

But at the same time, i just wanted to note that "good at poker" is not synonymous with "poster on 2+2" or whatever.


I don't see how my reg date has anything to do with anything?

[damaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
i just wanted to note that "good at poker" is not synonymous with "poster on 2+2" or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have people been saying it is? (legit question, not being smart)

Also, do you mean that 2+2ers aren't all that, or that, as I gleaned from your initial post, that other styles are also very profitable, ie that LAG who played you with 63o, and we TAGs need to not be so arrogant in our assumptions that ours is the only way (assuming 2+2 TAGness can be defined as "one way")?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't see how my reg date has anything to do with anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's that you signed up three months ago, you've posted way too much, and now you're preaching to everyone else about something you seemed to have had an epiphany about in the last few weeks. Sometimes it's good to sit back and learn from others rather than try to get your own opinion out there.

[jman220]

I don't berate the fish. And I still maintain that I have never met a winning player who does. Those from 2+2 who berate fish are probably not themselves winning players, and they berate the fish because of this to vent their frustration.

Now if you're talking about berating people on the boards, that is totally different. The goal at a table is not to educate your opponent, berating them does that, however slightly. The goal on these boards is to help each other, and many posters need a swift kick in the ass when they first came here. Many of my first posts in the limit and HUSH forums resulted in me being berated and being told, I sucked, etc., and I am a far better player for it.

[sthief09]

just turn your chat off man

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your analysis here. One thing "experienced" posters think they can do is flame other posters because of their superiority complex. I have already been flamed several times in this post by "experienced" posters, but I really don't care. I was trying to make a point about superiority complexes and they've further demonstrated my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding right? You think I posted that because I think I'm a superior poster? Nobody is going to give a damn about your post, even if you're right. The assholes are going to remain assholes. And the people who keep their mouth shut are going to keep their mouth shut. Your post was useless. Nothing will change.

[kyro]

I just wanted to add that outside of SNGs, I am a breakeven player at best and a forgettable poster. If you asked half the people on this forum who "kyro" was, they wouldn't have a clue.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like your analysis here. One thing "experienced" posters think they can do is flame other posters because of their superiority complex. I have already been flamed several times in this post by "experienced" posters, but I really don't care. I was trying to make a point about superiority complexes and they've further demonstrated my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding right? You think I posted that because I think I'm a superior poster? Nobody is going to give a damn about your post, even if you're right. The assholes are going to remain assholes. And the people who keep their mouth shut are going to keep their mouth shut. Your post was useless. Nothing will change.

[/ QUOTE ]


I wasn't referring to you at all kyro. You made a fair point.

[TomCollins]

But I read books, I know percentages!!!

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
...unless you are Schneids or Dcifrths or some other random person who has played millions of hands and can read hands like no one else...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post...the longer I play the truer I realize this is.

[Sniper]

If you have time to berate other players while you are playing, you should add another monitor and open another 4 tables... your "communication" with other players is costing you money in many ways!

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...unless you are Schneids or Dcifrths or some other random person who has played millions of hands and can read hands like no one else...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post...the longer I play the truer I realize this is.

[/ QUOTE ]

The truer you realize what is? That there aren't many winning players, or there are a lot of players better than you? You should have known, and never forgotten, both of those things within your first week of play.

Also, his post isn't good. The subject is "2+2ers suck". But then he goes on to say later that it doesn't apply to all 2+2ers, only those who berate others for bad play.

Umm... '2+2ers' aren't usually the people berating others. The general consensus on these forums is that people who do that are idiots. Usually the only '2+2ers' I see doing that are people who just joined the forums. His post would have been somewhat better if he had addressed it to those who berate others for their play. Much like dogmeat, I don't appreciate being lumped in with those who like to play the coach at their tables.

His post also isn't good because he is telling us, "Get rid of your damn superiority complex," when he is clearly suffering from one of his own.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't berate the fish. And I still maintain that I have never met a winning player who does.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've met several. In fact, there is a well respected author who has quite a reputation for being a table captain and berating fish after bad beats.

[Subfallen]

No, I mean the longer I play the more I realize that the real money is in hand-reading...and that hand-reading is a far sight harder than I first imagined it to be. (Mostly because good hand reading requires good player reads...)

[SackUp]

well i think anyone named baron sucks. So there /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Who gives a crap what half the people on this board say or think?? Like it was said above, anyone not trying to continually improve their game is an idiot anyhow.

You obviously enjoy the board and have gained a lot from it. Why try to make a big bold statement like this. Your statement won't be read by most and will be followed by even less who read.

Take all the good stuff you can from the board, listen to the posters you respect, and learn to use the ignore button.

Next hand.

[Shillx]

2+2ers suck

You are right. I'm down 25 buy-in's in 40 sit n goes, man I [censored] suck bad.

[Evan]

The OP wants this thread locked and I agree that there's not a whole lot of worthwhile discussion here, so I'm locking it.