donkbet heads up with overcards, what's a good line?

[A_C_Slater]

In order to generalize furthur, just assume opponent is an unknown.


Example:

9 handed

You open raise in LMP-LP with A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and it folds to the BB who calls

FLOP: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif


BB bets.....


I usually call here and fold the turn if BB continues to bet, if he checks the turn I'll bet.

I have seen a few examples where people are calling this to the river with UI overs in small heads up pots versus unknowns. Is this routine?


I used to raise the flop in these spots, then BB would call and stop n go the turn every friggin time..... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Drizztdj]

Had something similar happen to me at Noble yesterday. I check-raised with overs (AK) after a pre-flop raise by me. Bet the blank turn and got raised had to fold.

Not sure when/if this should be played more passively and hope for a free showdown?

[fizzleboink]

I'd fold because you'd have to give yourself the full 6 outs to make this a barely profitable play with implied odds.

Reads may change things however.

[Bodhi]

With a such a ragged flop, it's really unlikely the villain is semi-bluffing. Either he has a pp, a 9, a 5, or he's totally bluffing. The latter is not likely enough relative to your pot-odds, so this is close between folding and calling a bet to see if you improve on the turn. Every so often the villain will chicken out and give you a free card, too.

[A_C_Slater]

If the villian does have a nine or a strong piece then wouldn't he check/raise? It just seems like they're thinking, "I'll bet here with my QT and get him to fold his AK, because I'm tricky smart."

[Bodhi]

Perhaps, but there's nothing law-like about donk bets and what they mean. If he does have a 9, his kicker probably sucks and he wants you to fold right away.

[soweak.]

your actions on this flop need to correlate well with your read of the player. Aggressive players I will raise and bet the turn regardless of the card. loose/passives I will call down until unprofitable to do so. tight passives I will raise/free card often, Rocks I will usually just fold.

I also will tend to mix up what I normally do just to try to stay unpredictable.

[Dave5511]

I'm seeing this more and more often. You open-raise, a blind or two calls and then bets out at a ragged flop. In fact, about every time this situation comes up, I've been seeing the blind bet out lately.

I do NOT think he's thinking "I'm tricky smart, I can get him to fold AK to my Q high" I think he's thinking "I've got a pair of fives and there's nothing on that board above a 9, so the raise missed the flop"

I'm tempted to call the flop bet, fold the turn if I don't improve. Why? Because when I get a big PP he'll bet into me and I can raise him on the turn. When I LP open-raise an A9s, I can raise him on the turn. When I raise w/99, I can raise him on the turn.

Let him have the tiny pots, set him up for when you really have the goods.

[A_C_Slater]

The thing is, almost everyone knows a preflop raiser will bet just about any flop when heads up with position vs a lone blind. Even donks know this, and like you said, I see this play more and more each day.

I'm starting to get paranoid that aren't hitting anything at all. But I'm not willing to call down with ace high in a teeny tiny pot even though I'm starting to get the feeling my hand is best (against unknowns.)

[Bodhi]

If you want to stop these possible bluffs, use the call-call-raise line with an overpair next time they donkbet.

[A_C_Slater]

I usually use the call,raise,bet line....

[Bodhi]

Same difference. If you use that line every once in a while and the donk-bettors see it, you don't need to worry.

[W. Deranged]

Slater,

One thing to think about is that being a little on the tightish side here on hands like this where you miss may induce players to take shots at you when you have real hands. This situation won't be hugely common, and what you give up in a few of these small, widow pots may be repaid in later pots where you actually have a hand.

I think calling the flop and folding the turn unimproved cannot be that bad against an unknown. If you notice a trend that a particular player is running this play often, you can get more aggressive.

[soweak.]

it is more dependent on how many others are in the hand, how many have yet to act, possible draws, etc...

I tend to be more aggressive in general on my approach to limit in general. However, first on my mind is not necessarily what I have in the hand, but what my other oppoents think I have, and how I can maximize my chances to win the pot.

In fact my holdings are usually 3rd or 4th on my list when assessing a situation like this.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
If the villian does have a nine or a strong piece then wouldn't he check/raise? It just seems like they're thinking, "I'll bet here with my QT and get him to fold his AK, because I'm tricky smart."

[/ QUOTE ]

Or they're thinking, "I don't want to check-raise, b/c that's too much money if he re-raises." Don't underestimate the power of a weak player wanting to put as little money in the pot as possible.

If he checks the turn and you bet, expect a call a very high percentage of the time as he either draws or still hopes to be ahead.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Every so often the villain will chicken out and give you a free card, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can also help to cure these types of opponents by just cold calling donk bets on drawless flops when you have AA or KK, then popping them on the turn.