MTT defining hand

[bluefeet]

yeah i know, wrong forum. but i like you guys, and muma said don't talk to strangers!

i made a nice run in the stars 30+3 last night. down to 50 or so (ITM), sitting 5th/6th in chips when i got this one:

i've been making a standard 3x every orbit or so waiting for the 'monster' - picking up blinds/antes with regular success. not thrilled about choosing to do so in such EP...but, with a hand i'll ditch to a push, and a decent hand to take to the flop (assuming i had position...vs. a blind).

BUT...got a cold-call from CO. i'll tell you i did NOT put him on an Ace. short of AA, he's pushing AK, push/folding AQ, probably folding anything less (AJ i suppose might call). i put him on a medium'ish pocket pair like JJ-99, or a strong draw hand.....KQs (yes, this very hand is honestly one i put him on PF).

so anyway. put in your mind that 1) he doesn't have an ace, and 2) he needs to believe you do

i totally donked this thing IMO...at least as far as my "ace representation" goes. granted, he might have been going to the felt here regardless, but he blinked&clocked to the very end before pushing -- leaving me the impression that i might have been able to take this pot.

i would like to know you're move here.
- check/raise?
- check/call-check, hit the turn?
- just check it down and save your chips?

too fast, makes the Ace a hard sell, too slow lets him put the squeeze on me...

(i'd happily accept "fold PF" too, but curious how you'd proceed on this flop)

PokerStars Game #2363665255: Tournament #11248332, Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (1000/2000) - 2005/08/17 - 23:38:30 (ET)
Table '11248332 1' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Emoney (26765 in chips)
Seat 2: bluefeet (35918 in chips)
Seat 3: Bigozy (37424 in chips)
Seat 4: tropiksun (16319 in chips)
Seat 6: stoodz (20294 in chips)
Seat 7: upyourriver (21962 in chips)
Seat 8: dominatrix2 (13527 in chips)
Seat 9: Vampton (49249 in chips)
everyone posts the ante 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluefeet [Td Kd]
1 fold
bluefeet: raises 4000 to 6000
2 folds
stoodz: calls 6000
3 folds
*** FLOP *** [Ad Ac Kh]
bluefeet: ??


results: <font color="white">
bluefeet: donked 10k at the pot
stoodz: pushed over his remaining 4k
edit: i called 4k more

stoodz wins pot w/KQc
</font>

[Matt R.]

It depends on how tricky you need to get with this player. Against a (bad) player who automatically assumes a check/raise indicates strength, I would go with this line. Possibly a min-raise to make him think you're trying to build the pot, then bet big on the turn.
Against a better player where this line won't work as often I'd lead out for around 1/2 the pot. If he just calls, I'd bet big on the turn. Possibly check/raise the turn if you have enough wiggle room with your stacks. Another line I could see working against a better player is check/calling the flop then leading out on the turn (kind of a confusing line, and often induces a fold on a scary board).

Anyway, I'm basically saying it's read dependent and I wouldn't try to get too tricky unless I think the other player's good.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

i totally donked this thing IMO...at least as far as my "ace representation" goes. granted, he might have been going to the felt here regardless, but he blinked&amp;clocked to the very end before pushing -- leaving me the impression that i might have been able to take this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be surprised if this is true. I think you're hosed here looking at the results; given that he's got about the pot behind and he's crushing everything but an A or KK, I don't think he's ever folding this here.

I think it's really hard to sell somebody that you have an A here. Certainly leading out isn't the way to go - on this kind of board, people with trips are generally so paranoid that any bet will lose customers that an A isn't going to bet first, most of the time. Thus, your line might look more like a bluff. Which is fine by me - if I've been playing aggressively, I think people can definitely come back at me on this board with 99-JJ, and then I'm in great shape. So I don't mind leading, and it's probably what I do here, but it's not going to convince people that you have an A. (EDIT: If I were really trying to convince somebody I had an A, I'd check-call a flop bet, and probably check-minraise a turn bet, but the stacks aren't deep enough for that to happen.) I'll also point out that if I've been playing aggressively, I don't think I can find a fold in this hand no matter what.

[durron597]

I really don't like leading this board. You're trying to get worse hands to call and/or better hands to fold. But no ace is folding. Which means that you either are trying to extract value from 88 or get KQ to fold. But if you lead strong, a decent KQ isn't folding.

On the other hand, if you check to 88, they may push hoping you have TT or a naked King and won't call. So if you check you may get value from worse hands. But if you bet, 88 will just fold and KQ won't.

So I think checking is clear. If he checks behind, re-evaluate on the turn. If he bets, this is where your preflop range is more important. If you think KQ/KJ is more likely than 88, then fold. If you think he will try to pick up the pot with 88, then call.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
It depends on how tricky you need to get with this player. Against a (bad) player who automatically assumes a check/raise indicates strength, I would go with this line. Possibly a min-raise to make him think you're trying to build the pot, then bet big on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The effective stack of each player after the preflop action is 7 BBs. I really don't think there's much room for these kinds of plays here, particularly the c/r. I think the most likely bet from most players at this pot is all-in.

[Matt R.]

If you were in villain's position, and the preflop raiser bet into you for &lt;1/2 the pot on an AAK board, what would you put him on? Personally, I would not discount an ace. For me, it would be 1 of 2 possibilities: 1) he has the ace and is trying to build the pot (while making it look like a bluff) or 2) he's 'probe' betting as harrington calls it to see if he can take the pot down without a contest.

I'm not sure I'd risk all my chips in villain's spot by making a big raise on the flop or calling a big bet on the turn. I would need a very good read to do so. And obviously bluefeet can let it go if raised on the flop.

So basically, I think leading out on the flop is fine against the right player if you really want/need to take the pot down. The right bet size is very important though.

[Matt R.]

The check/raise line would depend on what villain did after you checked to him. If he only bets 1/2 the pot he still has 11K behind, so if you can make him believe you have the ace then he should still fold -- the min-raise, although a small raise, may actually get him to drop it on the flop as it looks very strong (forget about betting the turn again, you're right, the stacks are probably too small for that). I wasn't paying really close attention to stack sizes though for the check/raise the turn line if there is a flop bet. Again, it's probably too shallow for this, but if villain habitually underbets the pot you may still have room to pull it off.

In regards to stack sizes though, this may be a pot you just have to let go against a lot of players since there isn't much room for getting fancy.

[11t]

I fold preflop.

EDIT: of course once you see the flop the best line is check/raise or check/calling a push. Betting here is awful.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
The check/raise line would depend on what villain did after you checked to him. If he only bets 1/2 the pot he still has 11K behind

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot preflop is 15800 (6k from bluefeet and villain, 3k in blinds, 800 in antes), he has ~14000 left after the PF action. Betting half the pot leaves him with 6k behind and he'll be getting 6:1 if he's forced to call for the rest of his stack. He's going to need to be seriously, seriously donkish to fold KQ in this spot.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea was just bout to write this. EASY fold pf. you just blew 18x bb with KTs. a sin to say the least. try raising 2.5 also now in mtts, does the same thing as 3 once the blinds get bigger. i would be MUCH more inclined to raise there with 56s, or even 56o, as its REALLY hard to get trapped. in mtts you simply can NOT play trap hands, especially oop. holla

[DarrenX]

I like the check/call on the flop, bet out the turn line with deeper stacks against an average player, but here they're just not deep enough, and I'm not sure he's average.

Do you have a read on him? I'd say he's questionable with a cold-call for 30% of his stack preflop without a monster. Wouldn't make sense to do with any pair lower than KK, including the others you put him on (unless he was in the blinds and could pull a s&amp;g postflop).

Once this flop comes, the chances he's solid and have AA or KK have all but disappeared; it means he's not solid, which also means he could very well be playing Axs... On a flop like this and with these blinds and stack sizes, checking shows much more strength. I think you have to check/raise all in on the flop. If he has an A, he isn't betting; if he checks the flop, I'm check/calling a small turn bet, and probably mucking if he pushes turn or river. You've still got a stack, play on...

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
i would be MUCH more inclined to raise there with 56s, or even 56o, as its REALLY hard to get trapped. in mtts you simply can NOT play trap hands, especially oop. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean trap hands like KQ? Seemed to work for the villain. I think this is strongly, strongly dependent on your opposition and your image.

I, too, prefer raising to 2.5 instead of 3, though with antes I think 3 is okay too. Probably somewhere in between (2.7?) is best.

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
in mtts you simply can NOT play trap hands, especially oop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gem of advice.

[Matt R.]

Oops.

Ever just see the "calls 6000" and think that the total pot size on the flop is 6000? This includes ignoring the blinds, antes, and initial raise. Yeah, neither have I until now.

A bad hangover is my only reasonable explanation at the moment.

[Matt R.]

durron,
Completely disregard what I said here. I was assuming deeper stacks, and see above for my stupidity when I was thinking of the pot size.


And PS -- I agree that in order to have any chance for a fold in this instance, you'd need to check the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
You mean trap hands like KQ? Seemed to work for the villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

There both trap hands, KT just gets trapped more than KQ, villian got indirectly lucky.

btw, good post raptor, enlightened my ass.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

There both trap hands, KT just gets trapped more than KQ, villian got indirectly lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think this oversimplifies things. bluefeet was one of the bigger stacks in the tournament. As such, he should be bullying a lot. Raising from relatively EP is unorthodox but not totally terrible, in my opinion, because the fact that there are more people remaining to call you is balanced somewhat by the fact that they are less likely to call you because EP raises are perceived as less likely to be steals. The actual cards he's holding usually aren't going to be the main concern.

If he's been bullying a lot, many people are going to be willing to make stands against him with substantially less than a pair of K's. And in these circumstances, the value of KT improves, because now making a pair of kings with a mediocre kicker plays stronger against the range of hands that are going to fight back. If you're up against overly tight, unobservant players, then KT is still not very good. If you're up against LAGgy, resteal happy opponents who are trying to take a perceived c-bet away from you, then pairing your K is a lot better.

You can't really afford to steal a lot unless you're willing to defend yourself some of the times that you actually do make a hand, because otherwise you're going to be pretty unsuccessful at it and then it gets really expensive.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising from relatively EP is unorthodox but not totally terrible, in my opinion, because the fact that there are more people remaining to call you is balanced somewhat by the fact that they are less likely to call you because EP raises are perceived as less likely to be steals. The actual cards he's holding usually aren't going to be the main concern.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you ever play an mtt with me around this stage, you will see that i play a LOT of hands, and almost all of them i come in for a raise. thing is, thats using position, and selective agression. raising from utg+1 into an entire field with K10s is just NOT a good play, i dont care how your image is percieved.

you say that they are calling tighter right? and that they see yer raise as strength? soo.. what kind of hands are they calling you with? maybe.. medium pairs and high cards? AK/AQ kinda things? well, K10 doesnt really do so well against those kinds of hands. i will RARELY raise into a full field with king high. MAYBE ill raise here with KQs, but its still not an amazing play.

the thing about these NL mtts, is that people are just plain clueless. against clueless people, you dont play hands you can get trapped on. play hands you can get away from VERY easily, or hands that actually have some potential.

as far as this goes..
[ QUOTE ]
And in these circumstances, the value of KT improves, because now making a pair of kings with a mediocre kicker plays stronger against the range of hands that are going to fight back.

[/ QUOTE ]

lets see what i can say about this.. ok, theres not a lot to say other than the fact that the value of KTs from utg+1 improves from 0 on a scale of 1-10 to a .5 on a scale of 1-10. therefore, being as its not even a 1, its not worth playing. i could go on and on and on about how pointless it is to raise these sort of hands up front. its just a gigantic waste of money.. ESPECIALLY if you dont play them well enough post flop. master players, negreanu, ivey, etc, can raise any hand in any position depending on the situation because they DONT GET TRAPPED.

[ QUOTE ]
You can't really afford to steal a lot unless you're willing to defend yourself some of the times that you actually do make a hand, because otherwise you're going to be pretty unsuccessful at it and then it gets really expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt necessarily true either. if you raise EVERY hand at the 100-200 lvl on stars with a 25 ante to 2.5 9 handed, there is 525 in the pot before you do anything. if you make it 525 every time, how often do you need to pick up the pot to be profitable? oh, i duno, half the time? yea. people fold too much. im not saying dont EVER raise out of position, and you may think im contradicting myself by explaining how correct it can be to raise a LOT.. im just saying that if you ARE going to raise oop, dont let it be with a hand you are going to get stacked with when you REALLY dont need to. gigantic waste. holla

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

raising from utg+1 into an entire field with K10s is just NOT a good play, i dont care how your image is percieved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly if you raised from EP a lot this would be pretty bad. If you throw in one EP raise over a whole bunch of orbits when you're normally stealing from late position, I don't think it's so bad.

[ QUOTE ]

you say that they are calling tighter right? and that they see yer raise as strength? soo.. what kind of hands are they calling you with? maybe.. medium pairs and high cards? AK/AQ kinda things? well, K10 doesnt really do so well against those kinds of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are fine points. I do think that some of the more aware opponents can call with air if they think you're stealing and figure they can take it away from you on the flop. This is certainly less common than the scenario that you describe.

[ QUOTE ]

the thing about these NL mtts, is that people are just plain clueless. against clueless people, you dont play hands you can get trapped on. play hands you can get away from VERY easily, or hands that actually have some potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this; in the next bit you quote, you cut out the part where I say "If you're up against overly tight, unobservant players, then KT is still not very good." It's situational.


[ QUOTE ]

lets see what i can say about this.. ok, theres not a lot to say other than the fact that the value of KTs from utg+1 improves from 0 on a scale of 1-10 to a .5 on a scale of 1-10. therefore, being as its not even a 1, its not worth playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's scientific.

I don't think raising with KTo in UTG+1 is a great play. I think done rarely, it's not horrendous. The main thrust of what I was saying is less concerned with the position in this hand and more with the "trap hand" idea as a whole. I think too many people in this forum (and I'm not saying that you're one of them) get overly attached to the notion of trap hands and forget that they're trap hands against certain kinds of opponents. To give an oversimplified example of what I mean, suppose you have an opponent who will call you down blind in a particular spot. In such a situation, I'd happily bet them down with second pair, whereas if I'm playing with a rock, I'm out of there instantly. Obviously it's not this clear cut in real life, but these distinctions exist, and guidelines about which hands are "trap hands," while useful, can also be neglected sometimes.

[ QUOTE ]
this isnt necessarily true either. if you raise EVERY hand at the 100-200 lvl on stars with a 25 ante to 2.5 9 handed, there is 525 in the pot before you do anything. if you make it 525 every time, how often do you need to pick up the pot to be profitable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Another good point. But what are you doing when you're called? Are you c-betting often? Say you c-bet 2/3 of the time you steal and get a PF caller. If you're getting pounded here, then you're losing a lot more than just the PF steals and you need to be successful more often as a result. So I guess I'm talking more about how you handle things with the post-flop aspect of stealing when I say you need to be willing to defend sometimes.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Another good point. But what are you doing when you're called? Are you c-betting often? Say you c-bet 2/3 of the time you steal and get a PF caller. If you're getting pounded here, then you're losing a lot more than just the PF steals and you need to be successful more often as a result. So I guess I'm talking more about how you handle things with the post-flop aspect of stealing when I say you need to be willing to defend sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

the thing with this though.. is that if you are playing yer position, than you will not be first to act. thats the single largest advantage you can have in NL holdem. position is key, and one of the biggest factors to continued success in mtts. the good players know how to play position. i could care less how trappy my hand is if im folded to in the cuttoff. its getting raised. period. holla

[johnnybeef]

highly player dependent. but without a read, i check and see what he does as most people will slowplay an ace here. if he checks the flop, i play very defensively for the rest of the hand. if he bets i call and lead the turn for 1/2-3/4 the pot.

ps, fold this one pf next time.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

the thing with this though.. is that if you are playing yer position, than you will not be first to act. thats the single largest advantage you can have in NL holdem. position is key, and one of the biggest factors to continued success in mtts. the good players know how to play position. i could care less how trappy my hand is if im folded to in the cuttoff. its getting raised. period. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

People can still c/r your continuation bets. Yes, position is good, we all know that, but I don't really see how that solves the dilemma I'm talking about here.

[11t]

You expressed that well. Good post.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

the thing with this though.. is that if you are playing yer position, than you will not be first to act. thats the single largest advantage you can have in NL holdem. position is key, and one of the biggest factors to continued success in mtts. the good players know how to play position. i could care less how trappy my hand is if im folded to in the cuttoff. its getting raised. period. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

People can still c/r your continuation bets. Yes, position is good, we all know that, but I don't really see how that solves the dilemma I'm talking about here.

[/ QUOTE ]

it appears as though my words are now wasted on you. i think ive done enough to cover my point. holla

[bluefeet]

Just wanted to say thanks guys...much more discussion than I anticipated (had to split for golf after the post, just got home). Great stuff on both sides. I 'dabble' in MTT's for kicks - using standard SnG strategy to get me near/in the money. After that? 'Clueless' is a good discription - especially with a stack where pushing isn't much of an option in relation to the blinds. Anyway...thanks for contributing to my OT post. Sounds like I could benefit from lurking in MTT a bit...

[Ryendal]

I love this forum