New 2+2'r Looking for some advice/help.(Long)

Hello There,

First off Id like to say that I have a lot of passion for Poker, namely NL Holdem. I think its a great game and I have a lot of fun playing it.

Anyways the reason I am posting this message is because I cant seem to get over something that is holding me back from being a good player. So Im hoping that someone will be able to share some advice with me on how I can put this problem behind me.

My problem is emotional control, now before I get into too much detail I think If I summarize my poker history so far It might help.

So the first time I played poker was just over 3 months ago, It was actualy my birthday and my friends and I went to the largest casino around here to celebrate. This was actualy my first time being in a casino and my first time playing Poker for real money.

I had seen poker on TV, and also had played about 20 hours of play money tables over the past 2 weeks at Poker Stars. So I thought It would be fun.
(feel free to laugh at me for this hehe)

Anyways I ended up going on a nice run, as I turned my 100$ dollar buy in to about 500$ in 2-3 hours at 1/2 NLHE.

The excitement of winning like that was probaly one of the best feelings I have ever had in my life. I know that sounds bad, as problem gamblers probaly feel the same way, but I cant see how anyone woudnt feel great after that ? it seems normal to me. So anyways I took that 500 dollars and said you know I really enjoy poker and could see myself getting into it, im going to invest this money into making me a better player.

So I ended up buying season 1 and 2 of the WPT DVD sets and also purchased a number of books, such as SuperSystem2, CaroTellBook, harringtonholdem2, TheoryOfPoker and a few others. And over the last 3 months I have really dived into Poker, becoming a sponge and taking in every bit of poker knowlegde that I can. Between studying the WPT tournaments, reading books and spending a good portion of time at work browsing 2+2 and the cardplayer forums I think I am on the right track to becoming more adept at the strategy and skill base aspects of the game.

Then a week after my first time at the casino I ended up putting a 100 dollars into PartyPoker, and thought id give playing online poker a shot, I ended up losing the first 100 pretty fast, So I put another 100 in right after. I make a pretty good income from my full time job so I didnt think it was that big of a deal. On my second deposit, I won a number of SnG's, and also tried buying in at the mini step for 5+1. I ended up winning first place from mini step 1 to 4, and got 3rd on the final table mini step for a 500$ US finish.

I deposited 400 of the 700 dollars in my party account back into my bank and then had my first diaster playing poker. I ended up taking some pretty horrible beats ..and had my first tilt experience. I coudnt stop myself I burned 300 dollars in a single day. Once I started losing from a bad beat I tried too hard to make it back and overplayed everything, tried to win too many pots ..and boom my party account was at 0.

Now since then, according to my book of records, which I have to keep track of my bankroll for poker. In total from live games im about ahead 200 dollars and from online im down about 500.
The same thing happens everytime online, at first I usualy can about double or make a steady profit from the ring games. Then Ill get home from work and probaly shoudnt play but I do anyways ..and usualy this will end in me tilting away the rest of my online roll.

Ive tried really hard to only play when im on my A game, and when I do the money comes rolling in, Ive progressed a lot in being able to handle bad beats. This last week I had been going very strong, only playing when I was top notch, taking breaks no more 10+ hour sessions on weekends. But damn! I did it again..had top two pair busted by some idiot going all in on a draw. Then boom tilt.

So I see improvement in myself but still I am having a hard time keeping control. I know I could one day be a great poker player. As I have been extremely successfull with many forms of competive gaming in the past, and I believe I can translate that into poker. However having discipline enough to only play when im 100% and not letting myself go "well holy that was unlucky I need to make that money back asap" is really screwing me. I may have to give up poker If I cant obtain the proper discpline to play this game. This is something that I really do not want to do, but will If I cant get a hang of it.

So im 22 years old, I do spend quite a bit of time devoted to poker, more so then I should. But I am keeping a balance between work life, poker life and my girlfriend. I am not wanting to go professional I just am wanting to improve and grow as a player. Has anyone else had a experience like this when they first started playing ? and how did they overcome it ?

Also do you think I may have a gambling problem ? or is it kind of normal for most poker players to go through stages like this when they first start playing. I do not overspend my budget, I only play with money I can spare and I know I can grind out a steady profit from poker If I can just discipline myself which I am unfortunately failing at.

So thanks ahead of time for any feedback, and I am sorry if this was a long read or poorly written, as Im at work right now.

Thanks! and help ! I need guidance from you pros =).

[DeadMoneyOC]

[ QUOTE ]
Between studying the WPT tournaments,

[/ QUOTE ]

JOPKE?

[MicroBob]

not sure what stakes you're playing...but I am guessing it's high enough where $300 swings can be fairly common.
If these swings are beyond your comfortability level than you should play lower stakes.

You don't understand the long-run or variance.

Every single player in existence has losing sessions. All the freaking time in fact.



Also - the guys going all-in against you on a draw may very well be doing the correct thing...and it's possible that you might not have been correct to call with whatever you had...or perhaps you didn't bet strongly enough to get them out of the hand earlier.

In other words...you've been playing for 3 months and should very strongly consider the possibility that you aren't THAT good a player.
The reason you should strongly consider this possibility is because it's probably true.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
In other words...you've been playing for 3 months and should very strongly consider the possibility that you aren't THAT good a player.

[/ QUOTE ]
Totally. I think this is what seperates people that come to 2p2 and stay, becoming consistent winners, from those that post for a few days or a week and say "screw you guys, I hate 2p2!" When you are not experienced at poker you, in all liklihood, are not that good at it yet. Willingness to accept this is one thing that turns a loser into a winner.

If you told some of the best poker players on this board "you suck at poker," most of them would not be mad. In fact, many would say, "you are right." Now, they obviously don't, but they are willing enough to look at their game without any preconcieved notions of their ability level to at least ACCEPT the premise (no matter how untrue).

If I told MicroBob (a long term winner) he sucked at poker, he would not get all pouty and defensive like many newer posters would. To the OP: are you willing to objectively analyze yr game? Are you willing to accept... no embrace the idea that, you may very well suck at poker right now? If so you might be on yr way to becoming a successful player.

Hey,

I know some people would probaly laugh at my post and that is okay. Im playing mostly 50.1, and up to 20 dollar sit n go's.

However Im playing even lower stakes now, until I can get a hang of staying disciplined. From my post I never said I was "good" but on the way to becoming good, however I know I can crush the lower limit games on party ..but as I said obtaining the proper discpiline is hard.

[EStreet20]

My advice to you:

Don't try to argue what people say to you. Listen and learn.
You aren't as good as you think you are, but if you take a humble attitude and don't act like a douche you'll become a good player. Specifically, as far as other replies I've seen to this post so far I'd recommend you listen to Microbob. I know his advice often has a harsh tone but I remember when I first got started I learned a lot from his replies to my posts.

As for me, I'm too busy playing too actually write you a good advice post now plus I just don't feel like it so I'll leave it to the other guys, they're more experienced (in many cases) anyway.

Good luck

Matt

[charlie_t_jr]

I'll admit I didn't read the entire post, but:

[ QUOTE ]
So the first time I played poker was just over 3 months ago,

[/ QUOTE ]

You most likely are just suffering from "poker immaturity". The more you study and get a solid understanding how poker works, along with more experience, tilt "should" become less of a problem.

Right now you need to concentrate on learning and BR management.

[charlie_t_jr]

[ QUOTE ]
..but as I said obtaining the proper discpiline is hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Discpiline is the key element that will determine if you will be a winning player or a losing player.

Knowing that is half the battle, so study, play, and stay within your BR...good luck.

[DemonDeac]

i would recommend you sticking to a game you like, i.e. play SnG's or ring games or multi table tournies(although the variance in these puppies is insane).

you seem like you like SnG's, so i would suggest those. read this forum (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=singletable) alot and ull be amazed how ur game improves.

also i would recommend bankroll management. because of the variance in poker, ur gonna wanna play at a lower limit than you think. with what i read about ur bankroll, you should probably play $5 and $10SnG's on a consistent basis, depending on the confidence in your play. that way, when variance DOES kick in, you'll still have plenty of money and wont go broke. Read this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3154225&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=1&vc=1) about bankroll management (i think there's a better one, but this one will work). also read this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=inet&Number=1060198&PHPSES SID=&fpart=1#Post1060198) about building a bankroll with bonuses and whatnot. its really good for beginners.

hopefully this all works for you and you become a consistent winner.

[spaminator101]

you sound like you play a poker game like doyle brunson or gus hansen
this is not a very good idea for a relitively new player
i started out playing a very fast agressive game and i sucked
you have to slow down some, you have to change gears, it cant just be push, push, push all the time
while agression is a very good thing in poker extreme agression is a night mare
also if your being extremely agressive at the limits youve mentioned in earlier posts on this thread then it probably means you are bluffing and trying to steal way to much.
this is something that beginning players do
also its impossible to bluff at microlimits

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
you should probably play $5 and $10SnG's on a consistent basis, depending on the confidence in your play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just a quick thought: If you are playing Party it's probably best to stay away from the 5+1s as you are playing the same $1 entry as you do at the 10+1s. Other sites, like Stars, charge $.50, so there it doesn't matter.

[DemonDeac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you should probably play $5 and $10SnG's on a consistent basis, depending on the confidence in your play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just a quick thought: If you are playing Party it's probably best to stay away from the 5+1s as you are playing the same $1 entry as you do at the 10+1s. Other sites, like Stars, charge $.50, so there it doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. this is why ur name is green /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
Every single player in existence has losing sessions. All the freaking time in fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

In support of this:

My current .5-1 (limit) 10-handed online winrate over 80k-ish hands is 4BB/100h. I win 55% of my sessions. This is standard for winning players in the micro-limits.

but that's limit. I don't know what standard results are like for NL.

[jman220]

Join a site where they have true micro-limits (like pokerstars), where the money won't mean taht much to you,a nd you won't go on tilt. Play there for a few months while you learn the game and get better, make sure to log at a bare minimum, 10,000 hands at the micro limits before you even consider moving up. Good luck to you.

[trainslayer]

You've just gotten advice from some of the most respected, winning players on this forum. Soak it in and use it wisely. And slow down. It doesn't come overnight. Think LONG RUN.

And now some advise from another relative newbie.

I've been playin for about 2 years now. Mostly online. And mostly limit ring games. I do play low buyin sng's, low buyin mtt's and have dabbled in some low stakes NL.

The first year I played it was without much instruction (read Ken Warren.) I bought in at stars for $50 five times. I had some hot streaks and some cold streaks, but the main problem was I didn't have a clue. Hell, I didn't even suspect anything.

After losing that fifth buyin I said "to hell with it. I ain't doin this no more." (The money didn't hurt, I just can't stand givin it away.)

That's when I found TOP , SSHE and 2p2. I quit playin real money and only played play money. I studied my new books and I lurked here ALOT . I couldn't believe the wealth of knowledge I'd found. There are many posters here who are very willing to spend their time and energy helping us learn. They don't have to. And I'm am very grateful. Since the first of the year I have been playing real money again and I am still not sure that I am a good player. I've won consistantly at .25/.50 for over 20k hands, I've won fairly consistantly at .5/1 over 6k hands. I've placed in a couple sat. tourneys, done well in a couple 2p2 tourneys /images/graemlins/grin.gif and am getting fairly confident in my game. You have to play with confidence or your fighting an uphill battle.

My point is, I've been at this game for almost 2 years now and I'm still so far away from good that it's scary. You've been playin 3 months and I dare say haven't scratched the surface yet. Slow down and listen . These people here will love to help you. But don't be stubborn and piss them off. If you don't want to learn they'll find someone who will.

Good luck.

[MicroBob]

I guess I'n just observing that you seem to be saying:

- I started playing 3 months ago
- I am a good player
- Sometimes I have a discipline problem and THAT'S when I lose to idiots.

I know I'm over-simplifying here.
But you need to think about the possibility that sometimes you lose to the idiots because YOU aren't playing well.
Saying that your losses are just bad discipline is incorrect.
Your losses and leaks in your game are far more than just discipline.
It's also a matter of not even realizing that you could be playing much much better than you are right now.


In short - I think your actual play is probably as a big a problem as your discipline.