common SS situation... bettor on your right, do you call or raise?

[akishore]

$1/$2 hold 'em, ten-handed

i'm button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif .
four limpers, i raise, big blind and limpers call.

(12 SB) A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
three checks, MP bets, LP folds, i ...

call or raise?

in this specific hand, i had one tightie (20% VP$IP), two loose guys (30% VP$IP) and one really loose guy (70% VP$IP) behind me. i really wasn't sure how they reacted to two cold, though. i also didn't have much of a read on the bettor except that he had light betting standards.

how does it change if there's only two to act behind me? four? five?

how does it change based on the tightness and aggressiveness of the bettor?

aseem

[meep_42]

Raise.

The pot is large and your equity is sky high. You want KQ/KJ/Tx/J9 etc to fold to improve your chances of winning the pot.

If they call two cold, all the better, you have an equity edge.

-d

[brettbrettr]

Raise b/c its a draw heavy board. I know you have the nut flush draw but two pair, straight draws, all of which are possible. If you're the one who's behind--which is entirely possible--you've got a nice draw yourself.

Thing about most small stakes tables is this:

Players drawing for one bet are most often drawing for two.

[SeaEagle]

Without a very specific read, raise this no matter what the texture of the table. The pot is fairly big and you want to give yourself the best chance of winning UI. A call gives any hand with 4 outs (maybe even 3 outs) odds to call.

A raise also sets up the option to either take a free card on the turn or a free showdown on the river.

[Octopus]

The pot is big; winning what is there now is not a bad result. You might have the best hand. You clearly have the best draw. There is a likely straight draw out there. This could easily go 3 or 4 players to the turn for 2 bets each. You are no worse than even against everything but a set even headsup.

Raise.

[callmedonnie]

I raise this because of the amount of equity you have. You may already have best hand, and you a draw to an even better hand. I absolutely love these kinds of hands. You may not need to improve, though I'm not super comfortable w/ just this ace U/I by river. But raising is def +EV.

Also, there are draws to hands that will beat you w/out a diamond. So you have to go after this one.

[akishore]

Thanks everyone. I did indeed raise it, and just wanted to make sure it was the right play.

Aseem

What if the flop is A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Does that make it just a call? Or do you raise as well due to pot size to reduce the field?

LLL

[callmedonnie]

I raise that also. It doens't change much, except the possibility of the open ended. I still raise due to equity reasons.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
What if the flop is A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Does that make it just a call? Or do you raise as well due to pot size to reduce the field?

LLL

[/ QUOTE ]

As others have said, realize that calling is only better than raising if it's quite clear that:

1. Many players would incorrectly call one but correctly fold to two (this tends to be the case when there is a big pot and some weakish draws and so on, and you have a read that the players behind you play decently).

2. You are very confident that by just calling you are not creating profitable situations for players to call behind you (this is very rarely the case in a large pot, as it becomes worthwhile to call one bet with tons of longshot holdings).

In a big pot raise unless you have a very clear reason to. Calling seems good because you'll get a bunch of people to call when you have a ton of equity. But, remember, at small stakes you may be able to get a bunch of people to call TWO when you have a ton of equity. And that rules.

I am thinking out loud now.

If I raise, I am driving other players out and increasing my current equity. You feel that the increase in equity makes up for the loss of additional bets by the people behind me? The assumptions I have to have to make this a raise rather than a call is

1) I might have the best hand right now

2) The pot is big enough right now to try to maximize my odds of winning it vs building a bigger pot

3) There are actually outs that I could buy

Numbers 1 and 2 are easy, If I have a pure drawing hand, I may want to keep players in (in this case I have a drawing hand AND a potential winner without improvement). If the pot is small, I may want to keep players in (In this case, the pot is large so I want to maximize my odds of winning it).


I completely understand it up to this point.

Number 3 is the concept that I have difficulty with. Looking at the first examples flop: A /images/graemlins/club.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

What outs am I buying in a family pot like this? Is a KJ really folding to what equates to a BB. Is KQ, J9, Etc..

I've read SSHE and the part that confuses me is the part on buying outs. I see the first hand as possibly meeting the criteria for "when a bet won't protect your hand" type of status. It is in my mind "When a raise won't protect your hand".

I see in the 2nd example where raising would protect your hand. A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

So if I look at hand 1 as not buying outs, A raise here is for value only. If I am raising for value, is it better to "call for value" and keep some people in who might make their straight to my (possible) nut flush?

LLL

This is the type of hand that I feel I need to think outside my usual box on.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
2) The pot is big enough right now to try to maximize my odds of winning it vs building a bigger pot

3) There are actually outs that I could buy

[/ QUOTE ]
These two points are very closely related. You maximize your chances of winning the hand by buying outs. There are obvious outs that you can buy with a raise - 86, or a naked Kd have odds to call one bet but not 2. And there are always runner-runner outs that happen just because people will peel a card with a lot of crap for one sb in a big pot. You can't protect your hand against good draws, but a raise will still protect your hand against weak draws.

[ QUOTE ]
You feel that the increase in equity makes up for the loss of additional bets by the people behind me?

[/ QUOTE ]
I really think you're drastically overestimating your implied odds on this hand. Suppose someone is on a middling draw. When are you going to collect extra bets from them? The pot odds will be small enough that they're not calling even a single bet when a 3rd diamond comes on the turn.

On the other hand, 80% of the time you're not going to make your flush on the turn. But you can't fold even if you know someone's made a straight. You may well end up putting multiple bets in on the turn when you're behind.

Raise the flop. Collect an extra bet from the good draws while you still can. Buy a few outs from the weak draws.

Edit: removed some stupid analysis based on misreading the hand.