The Farm isn't so bad... and 1 hand for review...

[RockLobster]

Hi All--

Well I played 2 hours at 1-2 tonite, and made up about 40% of what I lost at 2-4 last nite. I'm very pleased, and thanks again to everyone who replied to my last post.

I have a question about this hand, any thoughts are appreciated...

I'm dealt K /forums/images/icons/club.gif T /forums/images/icons/club.gif in the CO. Folded to me, I raise (I'm either very social or not social at all, but never semi-social with this hand). Button (a little loose and chases too far) and SB (decent at this level) call. 3 to the flop:

[J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif]

Checked to me, I bet, button folds, SB calls. Darn, I was hoping to drop them both with this incredible show of strength. 2 to the turn:

[J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif] 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Check, I bet, call. Should I have just backed off here? I figured I'd take one more shot. 2 to the river:

[J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif] Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Check, check. I don't figure him to fold at this point, and he didn't seem to be chasing anything obvious (to me). SB takes it with A3o. Hmmm. Any thoughts?

[Nottom]

I think against your typical player at this level (and certainly one that fits your description of the button) you can generally give up on the turn. The fact that he is still here after calling your raise and with no draw on the board means he has a pair or an Ace or at least a better King than you and since he called your flop bet he has already decided you have nothing and will call you down.

Then again, there are a lot of these types that will call the flop bet with nothing then fold on the turn so maybe it was a good bet ... looking at the pot he only needs to lay down about 1 in 6 times or so for this to be a profitable semi-bluff.

[Bob T.]

First, I think I might downgrade my assesment of the SB a little bit, I like a fold preflop with his hand. I would also consider a three bet, if he thinks you are a loose stealer, but calling has to be the worst option.

I've mentioned this before, but one of the most valuable pieces of information, that I try to remember about my opponents is when they fold. Some get off hands on the flop, some usually see the turn, and then fold to a big bet, and some see the river, and fold when it is hopeless. If you know when the SB usually folds when he misses, then you know when he calls on that street, that he has more than a miss in his hand, and you can adjust your play then. If for instance, he folds on the flop, then you can take the free card on the turn, and hope to hit then. If he folds at the river, then you have to fire the last barrel. The ones that frequently fold to a turn bet, you usually have to bet into on the river, because if they were on some kind of draw, they will fold then, and the pot will be big enough so that if they fold one out of eight times, you will be showing a profit. I say, if you haven't been raised, and there is some draw out there that could have just missed, then go ahead and bet the river.

[RockLobster]

... you can generally give up on the turn... Then again, there are a lot of these types that will call the flop bet with nothing then fold on the turn so maybe it was a good bet...

You summed this up pretty well. Sounds like this decision was player-dependant, and I felt that I could get him to lay down on the turn. Once he stuck around past the turn, I figured a river bet was a non-charitable donation.

I know this was a boring hand to post, but it's the one that stuck out during this session... I just don't know what the right play was.

Thanks--

[RockLobster]

Hi Bob--

First, I think I might downgrade my assesment of the SB a little bit, I like a fold preflop with his hand. I would also consider a three bet, if he thinks you are a loose stealer, but calling has to be the worst option.

Agreed. I posted my thoughts on him based on how he had been playing to that point. Either I was wrong or his impression of me must have been different than the one I thought I had put forward.

Thanks for re-stressing the importance of noting WHEN they fold, historically.

[ZManODS]

I find myself making the same moves as you in this spot. I find that it is pretty costly when you dont pick the right time to do it though. With a ragged flop like this it is quite common that 1 of your 2 oppenents would hit some sort of card. I understand that you raised so that it should deter some oppenents from staying in with crap but at the level you are playing at you have to be carefull. There are some people that will play any Ace for a raise. You also have to consider your position.. In this hand you were in the CO so it could have appeared to be a steal raise. I would probably bet out on the flop like you did but give up by the turn unless a T,K or another club hit, especially because it doesnt look like he is on any type of draw.

"Its not gambling... its gamBlingBling"