Some overpair hands [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

brettbrettr

08-17-2005, 11:47 PM

Sorry for the mulitiple hadns in one post. I [censored] hate when people do that. But I figured one might shed light on another....

SB in this hand is 31/16/1.17 over 80 hands.
UTG+1 is

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

____________________________________

Main villan in this one is 30/20/1.2 over 90 hands

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, Button calls, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, Button folds.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises, SB calls.

River: (16.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

_______________________________________

In this one MP1 is a 50/5/.71 over 110
BB is 30/7/1.0 over 130

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (10.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

______________________________________

Villan here is 36/9/1 over 180
UTG+1 is a 13/6/2 over 200

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (15 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 17 BB

--------------------------------------------------

And finally, Villan is a 20/13/.83, 120 hands

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, CO raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Thanks in advances, bitches.

brett

Nick C

08-18-2005, 12:52 AM

Hand 1: This seems okay to me. I doubt you won though. Were you folding the turn if it hadn't given you a draw?

Hand 2: I like it.

Hand 3: Hands like this are frustrating, because you're probably behind, and you don't know which cards, if any, will help you.

And then calling on the river unimproved isn't much fun, but it's what I would have done.

Hand 4: Ah, jeez, what's SB waking up on the turn with? Just something like 98, hopefully.

Anyway, I like it, though I personally might have chickened out and taken the free showdown.

Hand 5: It seems okay to me.

From the looks of it, CO just had AK or something, or was worried his JJ was no good, on this paired, 4-straight board?

He seems kind of passive postflop, so I wouldn't expect him to 3-bet a flop checkraise with overs. But I've been seeing a fair amount of that kind of thing at 5/10 (which is taking some getting used to), and I'd imagine it happens at 10/20 as well. Plus, 120 hands isn't really that many, as far as aggression factors go, especially since Villain has only played 24 of them.

08-18-2005, 01:02 AM

I'll give it a shot.

Hand 1 (TT): I don't know how else to play it, but hands like this suck. I hate the PF cap + the flop 3-bet, cuz that screams higher-than-yours PP. Maybe he's got A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, but it's unlikely, and even that has major outs vs you. There's the remote chance he has 99. Is calling down barring an A or K a bad play?
Edit: just realized AdKd beats you too

Hand 2 (TT): I normally don't cap PF, but it's going 5-handed. I like the flop call + turn raise, and I think it's cuz I read SSH. You have more equity there. I prolly bet the river, but I don't know why. What is he calling with? I'd prolly check behind if an A, K, or Q fell (maybe even a J).

Hand 3 (KK): Seems standard. I expect to be beat by something I don't expect. Kudos on position.

Hand 4 (TT): Interesting hands. PF standard. Flop standard. Turn: yeah, you got to raise this turn and call down if 3-bet (or do you fold the river UI?). Bet the river for value, calling a c/r.

Hand 5 (77): OK, I have zero clue on this one. PF standard. Flop, I c/r also, but HATE the 3-bet. Now the turn is completely safe. I would prolly bet/fold the turn, cuz I'm a donk (please someone inform me on a line). If he calls my turn bet, I check/call the river.

5 hands in one post should be outlawed, but these are 5 of the most interesting ones I've read today, so thanks.

brettbrettr

08-18-2005, 01:11 AM

I think hands 1 and 5 are both fairly clear river folds. I would have folded in hand 5 but he never bet.

08-18-2005, 01:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think hands 1 and 5 are both fairly clear river folds. I would have folded in hand 5 but he never bet.

[/ QUOTE ] I hate the idea of folding 10BB+ pots for one more bet. So opponent having AQ, AK, or crap doesn't equate to 8% or better?

Nick C

08-18-2005, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think hands 1 and 5 are both fairly clear river folds. I would have folded in hand 5 but he never bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the fold in Hand 1. But sometimes if I'm calling the turn on a made hand that's looking weak plus a draw, I'll go ahead and call again on the river. It's entirely possible that this isn't so wise.

I understand what you're saying in Hand 5. I haven't run into a whole lot of players who push hard with overs throughout the hand (the flop 3-bet is what makes me say "push hard") but then check behind on the river, but I know they exist.

I bring this up because I'm thinking that's the kind of player you need to be against in this hand to take a turn check-call line followed by a flop check-fold (though of course your set outs do count for something).

thesharpie

08-18-2005, 07:11 AM

Hand 1 I wonder why everyone likes the flop raise so much? We're usually behind, and it's not inconceivable villain would 3 bet something you beat here. If you are raising you have to fold to a turn bet if you don't pick something up, right? I'd rather call call call if I picked up a draw on the turn and call then raise the turn if I don't pick up a draw.

Hand 2: Nice. Villain calls his AK or whatever here?

Hand 3: I play the same.

Hand 4: I'm not sure about the turn raise but it turned out OK.

Hand 5: Good.

HolyBejeesus

08-18-2005, 08:40 AM

I fold the river in #1 and the turn in #5.

brettbrettr

08-18-2005, 09:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder why everyone likes the flop raise so much? We're usually behind, and it's not inconceivable villain would 3 bet something you beat here. If you are raising you have to fold to a turn bet if you don't pick something up, right? I'd rather call call call if I picked up a draw on the turn and call then raise the turn if I don't pick up a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think you're right. Raising the flop and calling down is spending too many bets, IMO. I"m really losing this max with this line.

flair1239

08-18-2005, 01:30 PM

Hand 1:

I think my plan on the flop would be to see the turn. And go from there. I don't fear the diamond draw as much since it is HU. My initial thought is that any cheap cards are going to benefit you more than him.

2. I like this.

3. I don't mind just calling the turn. There are not many cards that can hurt you on the river if you are ahead. Three betting is tempting, because a lot of times against these looser types, they will be playing top pair like this, because they automtically put you on AK when you raise PF. However getting three bet from the passive would really suck, as I cannot find a fold yet.

But the more I think about it the closer it becomes. I am going to do some math on this one tonight.

4. confusing but I like it. I think it is a value bet on the river, as I would think a better hand would have 3-bet the turn.

5. That is about what I would do. With an opponent that passive though, I would expect to see him flip over TT-QQ

Redd

08-18-2005, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm interested in why you like waiting until the turn here. I was thinking that we're not protecting anything anyways, so we might as well raise for value (I think this is +EV?) while everyone is still in the pot. If there were more scare cards that could come on the turn (say if the flush were 2-suited), I would prefer to wait for a safe card but the only really scary cards here are high broadways.

toss

08-18-2005, 02:14 PM

Its true we can raise the flop for value in hand 2, but the argument is that we exploit a larger edge on the turn since theres only one street to come.

Redd

08-18-2005, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
4. confusing but I like it. I think it is a value bet on the river, as I would think a better hand would have 3-bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't we really opening ourselves up for a 3-bet with this turn raise? Would you still raise the turn if it were HU?

brettbrettr

08-18-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking that we're not protecting anything anyways,

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not protecting as much by rasiing here--b/c no one is going to fold on the flop--as we are if a safe card somes on the turn. This was my thinking anyways.

toss

08-18-2005, 02:16 PM

I'd just pop the flop HU since theres 4 less cards we have to worry about.

brettbrettr

08-18-2005, 02:18 PM

Redd

08-18-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder why everyone likes the flop raise so much? We're usually behind, and it's not inconceivable villain would 3 bet something you beat here. If you are raising you have to fold to a turn bet if you don't pick something up, right? I'd rather call call call if I picked up a draw on the turn and call then raise the turn if I don't pick up a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think you're right. Raising the flop and calling down is spending too many bets, IMO. I"m really losing this max with this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only problem with not raising this flop is that you're giving the only hand that you want to play against a cheap draw to 6 outs.

brettbrettr

08-18-2005, 02:25 PM

Agreed. So if I do raise the flop, get three bet, call, then have to call the turn because of the diamonds, I have to be willing to fold an overpair in a big pot on the river which is something I don't do well.

Redd

08-18-2005, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking that we're not protecting anything anyways,

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not protecting as much by rasiing here--b/c no one is going to fold on the flop--as we are if a safe card somes on the turn. This was my thinking anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

But with our relative position, there's only one person we can face with 2 bets on any street. And even if he does call to the turn, and SB does lead the turn, and we still want to raise, we'll still be giving him around 8:1.

brettbrettr

08-18-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking that we're not protecting anything anyways,

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not protecting as much by rasiing here--b/c no one is going to fold on the flop--as we are if a safe card somes on the turn. This was my thinking anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

But with our relative position, there's only one person we can face with 2 bets on any street. And even if he does call to the turn, and SB does lead the turn, and we still want to raise, we'll still be giving him around 8:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

That a hell of a parlay. Thing is, people call a lot of flops. They call less turns.

flair1239

08-18-2005, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4. confusing but I like it. I think it is a value bet on the river, as I would think a better hand would have 3-bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't we really opening ourselves up for a 3-bet with this turn raise? Would you still raise the turn if it were HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am thinking a three-bet would signify we are near dead. That is why I like the raise. Because I think it is for value when we are ahead. I also really don't see the need to showdown if I get three-bet.
[ QUOTE ]

Villan here is 36/9/1 over 180
UTG+1 is a 13/6/2 over 200

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (15 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 17 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Nick C

08-18-2005, 03:37 PM