Fold the flop here? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

08-17-2005, 09:43 PM

What would you have done here and why?

MP1 is a TAG (18/10/2.2). MP3 is a loose, semi-aggressive player (29/7/1.8). MP2 is a calling station (30/4/1.2).

(I happen to think this hand is very instructive, and will explain why later)

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.66 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7.33 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

River: (9.33 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
MP2 checks, MP3 checks.

Final Pot: 9.33 BB

chief444

08-17-2005, 09:48 PM

Yeah. Pretty easy fold.

08-17-2005, 09:48 PM

Why?

08-17-2005, 09:49 PM

Anyone fold this preflop?

baronzeus

08-17-2005, 09:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone fold this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Me.

And you fold the flop because it's unlikely you have the best hand and you don't have the odds to draw.

chief444

08-17-2005, 09:52 PM

Because you're probably beat. And if you by chance are good you're going to get drawn out on quite a bit.

I don't like calling this preflop either.

08-17-2005, 09:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Because you're probably beat. And if you by chance are good you're going to get drawn out on quite a bit.

I don't like calling this preflop either.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is an error to fold this preflop.

chief444

08-17-2005, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It is an error to fold this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK. If you say so.

08-17-2005, 09:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because you're probably beat. And if you by chance are good you're going to get drawn out on quite a bit.

I don't like calling this preflop either.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is an error to fold this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this will be the instructive part of the hand. Why?

08-17-2005, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is an error to fold this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK. If you say so.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are getting 7.5-1 on your call preflop here. Folding Q9 would be an error. A clear error.

Remember, there is not the risk of domination with Q9 as with hands like KJ, A-10, etc. in this spot.

uw_madtown

08-17-2005, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is an error to fold this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK. If you say so.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are getting 7.5-1 on your call preflop here. Folding Q9 would be an error. A clear error.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for pointing out a figure that all of us can easily see.

Please explain why an offsuit two-gapped queen is worth 7.5-1, especially given that you'll be OOP the rest of the hand.

chief444

08-17-2005, 10:04 PM

Yep. And Q9 offsuit's looking pretty good I guess against a preflop raiser in a multiway pot out of position. It's a real gem.

08-17-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You are getting 7.5-1 on your call preflop here. Folding Q9 would be an error. A clear error.

Remember, there is not the risk of domination with Q9 as with hands like KJ, A-10, etc. in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, my BB calling skillz suck, but I thought it was mostly against blind stealers. But if a Q hits the flop, then I'm not likely dominated? Am I relying on hitting a 9-high flop?

If the button open raises, SB calls, then I may call Q9o (I hope if this is wrong, someone tells me). But in this situation, I'm thinking fold.

uw_madtown

08-17-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, there is not the risk of domination with Q9 as with hands like KJ, A-10, etc. in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's also silly. You're still subject to domination (AQ/KQ/QJ/A9 are all reasonable hands to see from the raisers and 2 coldcallers here).

This is an ultra easy fold.

08-17-2005, 10:08 PM

Low content warning:

lol Zangief'd.

08-17-2005, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is an error to fold this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK. If you say so.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are getting 7.5-1 on your call preflop here. Folding Q9 would be an error. A clear error.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for pointing out a figure that all of us can easily see.

Please explain why an offsuit two-gapped queen is worth 7.5-1, especially given that you'll be OOP the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You only need 11.7% equity to make the call in the first place, and with the right flop your implied odds are huge here. You may be out of position, but in this spot that is not a terrible thing, since the raiser will act immediately after you. This means that you can checkraise the whole field on a highly favourable flop, and you can bet out and possibly get a raise from the PF raiser to knock out the callers behind. Relative position is very important in this hand.

Obviously, you aren't calling here to flop a queen and not much else, and that's why I think this hand is instructive. I knew a bunch of people here would advocate folding preflop, and this is a clear error. This error often gets compounded when it's a drawy board and the raise comes from an aggressive-type, since he may be raising for the free card and there is a decent chance we have the best hand on the flop here. But the fold is clear, and it is NOT because we might not have the best hand. There is a decent chance of that (and a decent chance that we do have the best hand), but the real problem is that we might not have the best hand combined with the other players' collective outs against us. This and the fact that if we hit out kicker it is a straight-maker.

That's what I thought was instructive, anyways. There are many ways to play this spot incorrectly.

uw_madtown

08-17-2005, 10:11 PM

And a third thing: if you think you're not subject to domination, then why aren't you BETTING this flop?

08-17-2005, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And a third thing: if you think you're not subject to domination, then why aren't you BETTING this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not say that I was not subject to domination. I said it was less likely than with hands with an A or a K in them.

Not betting this flop is obvious here. Please try to read what I have written instead of being simply argumentative.

chief444

08-17-2005, 10:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
with the right flop your implied odds are huge here.

[/ QUOTE ]
If only the odds of the right flop were huge here.

The reasons for the flop fold are fairly obvious. Thanks though for yet another incredibly instructive post. Keep up with the instruction and sooner or later your bound to get one right start to finish.

hicherbie

08-17-2005, 10:19 PM

i read your reply, and i still think the way its played, you should bet out and let the pfr raise the field. with Q9o, flopping a queen means you should try and protect your hand. this could be marginal since the pot is a decent size, but not large. the relative pot size, the coordinated nature of the board, and number of opps in this hand do all work against you.

all things considered, i would still recommend betting out and at worst, fold if its two back to you on the flop.

08-17-2005, 10:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with the right flop your implied odds are huge here.

[/ QUOTE ]
If only the odds of the right flop were huge here.

The reasons for the flop fold are fairly obvious. Thanks though for yet another incredibly instructive post. Keep up with the instruction and sooner or later your bound to get one right start to finish.

[/ QUOTE ]

And thanks for another snotty post that doesn't add anything to the strategic discussion.

(perhaps you need to think a bit more about why the odds of a favourable flop don't have to be huge to make the flop call correct here...)

chief444

08-17-2005, 10:24 PM

Any time.

[ QUOTE ]
(perhaps you need to think a bit more about why the odds of a favourable flop don't have to be huge to make the flop call correct here...)

[/ QUOTE ]
No [censored]? Really? Wow. That's instructive. Thanks.

Perhaps you should listen to what others suggest instead of constantly spouting off incorrect crap.

OK. For the sake of the forum I'm done with you. You'll probably be banned soon anyway, if we're lucky.

uw_madtown

08-17-2005, 10:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with the right flop your implied odds are huge here.

[/ QUOTE ]
If only the odds of the right flop were huge here.

The reasons for the flop fold are fairly obvious. Thanks though for yet another incredibly instructive post. Keep up with the instruction and sooner or later your bound to get one right start to finish.

[/ QUOTE ]

And thanks for another snotty post that doesn't add anything to the strategic discussion.

(perhaps you need to think a bit more about why the odds of a favourable flop don't have to be huge to make the flop call correct here...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that you've said you're essentially playing this for straight / 2pr value, I highly doubt your implied odds are high enough to make this call correct. Please show me some numbers to justify why you think you do.

Oh, and you're getting snotty responses because your posts in this thread all have a "condescending douchebag" tone, yet you haven't demonstrated why your contrary way of thinking is correct.

08-17-2005, 10:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i read your reply, and i still think the way its played, you should bet out and let the pfr raise the field. with Q9o, flopping a queen means you should try and protect your hand. this could be marginal since the pot is a decent size, but not large. the relative pot size, the coordinated nature of the board, and number of opps in this hand do all work against you.

all things considered, i would still recommend betting out and at worst, fold if its two back to you on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in retrospect. I think checking is the best play, but an argument could be made for betting here. The fact that it was almost certainly going to be raised and I would have to call another bet with no kicker convinced me not to bet. Remember, I am calling PF to flop something other than top pair--that's the real key to this hand. You have a situation where you are getting good odds to play a marginal hand preflop, but you must know why are playing that hand (flop big or go home).

08-17-2005, 10:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Any time.

[ QUOTE ]
(perhaps you need to think a bit more about why the odds of a favourable flop don't have to be huge to make the flop call correct here...)

[/ QUOTE ]
No [censored]? Really? Wow. That's instructive. Thanks.

Perhaps you should listen to what others suggest instead of constantly spouting off incorrect crap.

OK. For the sake of the forum I'm done with you. You'll probably be banned soon anyway, if we're lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. I get the feeling you barely even know how to play winning poker, frankly, so I've been ignoring you for a while now.

clownshoes

08-17-2005, 10:27 PM

You fold this PF for the exact reason you folded on the flop. Youre dominated so often its not even funny. I cant believe youre trying to argue for playing this crap OOP.

08-17-2005, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with the right flop your implied odds are huge here.

[/ QUOTE ]
If only the odds of the right flop were huge here.

The reasons for the flop fold are fairly obvious. Thanks though for yet another incredibly instructive post. Keep up with the instruction and sooner or later your bound to get one right start to finish.

[/ QUOTE ]

And thanks for another snotty post that doesn't add anything to the strategic discussion.

(perhaps you need to think a bit more about why the odds of a favourable flop don't have to be huge to make the flop call correct here...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that you've said you're essentially playing this for straight / 2pr value, I highly doubt your implied odds are high enough to make this call correct. Please show me some numbers to justify why you think you do.

Oh, and you're getting snotty responses because your posts in this thread all have a "condescending douchebag" tone, yet you haven't demonstrated why your contrary way of thinking is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Add up the odds of flopping a solid draw/2pair or better. Then consider the opponents. Then figure out how many bets you can make up for your single SB preflop.

The answer will surprise you.

hicherbie

08-17-2005, 10:35 PM

im not sure what the problem is. it doesnt seem like folding or calling is a horrible play. calling is fine if you can drop the hand like he did. folding is fine because you dont give that much up when you do.

chief444

08-17-2005, 10:40 PM

hicherbie,

Calling preflop is not fine here at all. Don't be persuaded to think otherwise. Do a quick pokerstove considering the two coldcallers are 30% VPIP normally (meaning they're range isn't huge here) and you'll see you have MAYBE 15% preflop equity. But, that's assuming you always see the river. And obviously, a lot of times even when you flop a pair you aren't. Plus, you're out of position. Folding is right.

Chief

08-17-2005, 10:42 PM

baronzeus

08-17-2005, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with the right flop your implied odds are huge here.

[/ QUOTE ]
If only the odds of the right flop were huge here.

The reasons for the flop fold are fairly obvious. Thanks though for yet another incredibly instructive post. Keep up with the instruction and sooner or later your bound to get one right start to finish.

[/ QUOTE ]

And thanks for another snotty post that doesn't add anything to the strategic discussion.

(perhaps you need to think a bit more about why the odds of a favourable flop don't have to be huge to make the flop call correct here...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that you've said you're essentially playing this for straight / 2pr value, I highly doubt your implied odds are high enough to make this call correct. Please show me some numbers to justify why you think you do.

Oh, and you're getting snotty responses because your posts in this thread all have a "condescending douchebag" tone, yet you haven't demonstrated why your contrary way of thinking is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Add up the odds of flopping a solid draw/2pair or better. Then consider the opponents. Then figure out how many bets you can make up for your single SB preflop.

The answer will surprise you.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are the odds of flopping JTx with no flush draw, QQx, or 99x, or Q9x?

uw_madtown

08-17-2005, 10:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I want you in my games, Chief. I'd run you over.

[/ QUOTE ]

YSSCKY.

I'm putting you on my ignore. I don't expect you to care.

Edited to add: I only mention it because I hope others will follow suit. Smug pricks who won't demonstrate why their contrary thinking is better than standard SS operating procedure aren't worth my time, nor anyone elses.

08-17-2005, 10:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree in retrospect. I think checking is the best play, but an argument could be made for betting here. The fact that it was almost certainly going to be raised and I would have to call another bet with no kicker convinced me not to bet. Remember, I am calling PF to flop something other than top pair--that's the real key to this hand. You have a situation where you are getting good odds to play a marginal hand preflop, but you must know why are playing that hand (flop big or go home).

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree PF w/ you, but there's enough drama going on about that, so I'll move on to the flop.

If you bet, then you may be raised by a better hand, which you will have to call, b/c you have odds then. You could also have the best hand. You'll prolly have to call down, barring extra aggression later.

If you check, then it could be bet & raised before it gets to you, then you have a likely fold.

If you check, the PFR bets and it's just called to you, then you have to call right? If the turn's a blank, then I see nothing changing, and now you're just calling down with very little information. Maybe that's the right way to play it (is it?), but it makes for an uncomfortable situation.

That's how I see the hand developing, and I still don't know the best way to play it, but I'd go with betting out.

Edit: I'd call PF if suited.

hicherbie

08-17-2005, 10:45 PM

i feel that betting, getting raised, and knocking out at least some of this field is key. i think a queen high flop is still good for your hand, esp with your position to a likely raiser. if the pot were smaller, or if you had no way to protect your hand, id advocate checking as well. but not making the field face two cold is a mistake i think. the only downside to this is if you cant let this hand go when taking additional heat.

without that problem, its time to invest a sb to try to take this pot.

Jeff W

08-17-2005, 10:48 PM

Easy fold.

Edit: Fold pre flop also.

hicherbie

08-17-2005, 10:49 PM

uw_madtown

08-17-2005, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if its a mistake, its not a huge one. thats all im saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unlike some turn/river decisions where your EV is pretty close whether you call or fold, mistakes like this can cause you to make more mistakes as you continue on with the hand. Further, add up a lot of these little mistakes preflop. What began as a series of small, negligible decisions turns into chip hemorraging.

I understand your point, but it is worth discussing, and I wish Grouch had done the math and then explained why exactly he thinks his implied odds are so outstanding here.

08-17-2005, 11:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hicherbie,

Calling preflop is not fine here at all. Don't be persuaded to think otherwise. Do a quick pokerstove considering the two coldcallers are 30% VPIP normally (meaning they're range isn't huge here) and you'll see you have MAYBE 15% preflop equity. But, that's assuming you always see the river. And obviously, a lot of times even when you flop a pair you aren't. Plus, you're out of position. Folding is right.

Chief

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 16% equity and you are getting 7.5-1, without implied odds. 7.5-1 is 11.8%, which is what you would need to call on a pure equity scale.

So you have 4.3% more than you need to make the preflop call an even proposition, and you are getting very high implied odds (and little downside if you can let it go on the flop). This is giving the raiser a standard TAG range and the callers standard ranges (big cards, high suited connectors and suited aces, pairs).

I think some of you need to reread Nate's post on playing too tight. You can find it here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1767198&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1) and it has a preflop quiz. It should be clear from the results of that quiz that a call with Q9 getting 7.5-1 from the BB is totally standard (particularly with semi loose limpers who will pay you off and a TAG who can raise it up for you if you hit hard).

I posted this hand to help some of the weak-tightish posters here with their preflop thinking, and to help some of the loose callers with postflop thinking. I was trying to help, and it's too bad it turned into a flame war, but that seems to be the way of things here. People very rarely seem to be able to diagree about strategy without being jerks about it.

CallMeIshmael

08-17-2005, 11:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(perhaps you need to think a bit more about why the odds of a favourable flop don't have to be huge to make the flop call correct here...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Phoenix, AZ

Hmmm....

CallMeIshmael

08-17-2005, 11:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I want you in my games, Chief. I'd run you over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chief is easily one of the best players in SS.

08-17-2005, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want you in my games, Chief. I'd run you over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chief is easily one of the best players in SS.

[/ QUOTE ]

His strategy posts do not reflect this supposed level of skill.

MaxPower

08-17-2005, 11:04 PM

I don't know why I am even replying to your Matador-like posts.

I do think this a bad hand to call a raise from the blind, but is especially bad in a game like 15/30 on Party. The game is very aggressive on the flop which is not good for a hand like this.

I do think betting the flop is a better play. By checking you wil blown off the best hand too often. Betting just improves your chances of winning if you do have the best hand.

Oh well, maybe I am wrong. I'll see you at the tables oscar.

baronzeus

08-17-2005, 11:04 PM

It's only got 16% equity against the likely range if you stay in until the river, Tilts. There are many times you won't be able to call the flop for your backdoor straight or flush or two pair or trips or whatever which is why your equity numbers are deceiving. Fold preflop.

08-17-2005, 11:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's only got 16% equity against the likely range if you stay in until the river, Tilts. There are many times you won't be able to call the flop for your backdoor straight or flush or two pair or trips or whatever which is why your equity numbers are deceiving. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you understand equity + implied odds very well here. The times you cannot call with your backdoor draws are more than made up for by the times you hit and make up many bets.

This is ONE small bet, people. You HAVE the odds. Just because you don't have a pretty hand is NOT the issue.

I tried to help. People are obviously pretty pissy about it. So fine, fold this hand and keep playing the style you play. I really don't care if you don't want to listen to reason and improve your games.

baronzeus

08-17-2005, 11:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's only got 16% equity against the likely range if you stay in until the river, Tilts. There are many times you won't be able to call the flop for your backdoor straight or flush or two pair or trips or whatever which is why your equity numbers are deceiving. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you understand equity + implied odds very well here. The times you cannot call with your backdoor draws are more than made up for by the times you hit and make up many bets.

This is ONE small bet, people. You HAVE the odds. Just because you don't have a pretty hand is NOT the issue.

I tried to help. People are obviously pretty pissy about it. So fine, fold this hand and keep playing the style you play. I really don't care if you don't want to listen to reason and improve your games.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the amount you make up in implied odds are often overtaken by reverse implied odds and domination. For example, KQ9 and AQ9 flops are very dangerous for you , as are QT9 and Q98. Too much [censored] to deal with with a mediocre hand. You are wrong.

08-17-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's only got 16% equity against the likely range if you stay in until the river, Tilts. There are many times you won't be able to call the flop for your backdoor straight or flush or two pair or trips or whatever which is why your equity numbers are deceiving. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you understand equity + implied odds very well here. The times you cannot call with your backdoor draws are more than made up for by the times you hit and make up many bets.

This is ONE small bet, people. You HAVE the odds. Just because you don't have a pretty hand is NOT the issue.

I tried to help. People are obviously pretty pissy about it. So fine, fold this hand and keep playing the style you play. I really don't care if you don't want to listen to reason and improve your games.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the amount you make up in implied odds are often overtaken by reverse implied odds and domination. For example, KQ9 and AQ9 flops are very dangerous for you , as are QT9 and Q98. Too much [censored] to deal with with a mediocre hand. You are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're a likely a weak postflop player who wouldn't know what to do with those flops. As I said earlier, if you're a crummy postflop player, yeah *maybe* you should fold this hand in the BB. But if you're not, it's a clear call. Just because you don't know what to do on a KQ9 flop with varying degrees of action doesn't mean others don't.

Keep playing ABC Poker 101 though and keep grinding out those 2-4 wins, I could care less. One less unimaginative nit in my games is fine with me.

uw_madtown

08-17-2005, 11:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And the amount you make up in implied odds are often overtaken by reverse implied odds and domination. For example, KQ9 and AQ9 flops are very dangerous for you , as are QT9 and Q98. Too much [censored] to deal with with a mediocre hand. You are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention when you get a safe flop like Q93, but it's of one suit or two-toned.

chief444

08-17-2005, 11:14 PM

Max,

I agree that a flop bet is fine here considering the pot size and also considering that you're likely to get raised immediately by both worse and better hands. I actually think whether to bet or check the flop is the only interesting decision in the hand.

Chief

08-17-2005, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the amount you make up in implied odds are often overtaken by reverse implied odds and domination. For example, KQ9 and AQ9 flops are very dangerous for you , as are QT9 and Q98. Too much [censored] to deal with with a mediocre hand. You are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention when you get a safe flop like Q93, but it's of one suit or two-toned.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're afraid of flops and decisions on them, don't play hold'em.

Jesus, this is getting pathetic.

uw_madtown

08-17-2005, 11:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure whatever you said was quite intellectually stimulating though.

MaxPower

08-17-2005, 11:19 PM

By your equity argument you should call with any two cards here. There are no two cards that have less than 11% equity against most ranges of hands that your opponents can have.

08-17-2005, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By your equity argument you should call with any two cards here. There are no two cards that have less than 11% equity against most ranges of hands that your opponents can have.

[/ QUOTE ]

The equity argument is only half the equation, with implied odds making up the rest of the argument.

ghostface

08-17-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, there is not the risk of domination with Q9 as with hands like KJ, A-10, etc. in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

AQ, KQ, A9??, no flush possible and some shitty 2 gap

08-17-2005, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, there is not the risk of domination with Q9 as with hands like KJ, A-10, etc. in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

AQ, KQ, A9??, no flush possible and some shitty 2 gap

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read the whole thread before responding. I have stated that domination is not AS big a concern, not that it is of no concern whatsoever. Domination is more likely with hand that include aces and kings than it is when your high card is a queen.

chesspain

08-17-2005, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The equity argument is only half the equation, with implied odds making up the rest of the argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are talking about limit poker, aren't we?

08-17-2005, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The equity argument is only half the equation, with implied odds making up the rest of the argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are talking about limit poker, aren't we?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Implied odds with an aggressive raiser and loose-ish players behind are very high here, particularly in my relative position.

Neal_Schon

08-17-2005, 11:58 PM

http://files.deepabyss.com/images/nolarides/banned_jesus.jpg

ghostface

08-18-2005, 12:08 AM

But how many ppl do you see cold calling raises with things like QJs and QTs, or even their off suit counterparts. I think the best you can hope for on this flop is a OESD or two pair. I dont know how often OESD's flop but I know two pair is pretty low.

Catt

08-18-2005, 12:29 AM

Wow! For someone who was positively giddy with this board and the collective resources it provides to all, things have really turned around quickly, haven't they? I think a big part of the reason why is bringing an attitude such as this:

[ QUOTE ]
I posted this hand to help some of the weak-tightish posters here with their preflop thinking, and to help some of the loose callers with postflop thinking. I was trying to help, and it's too bad it turned into a flame war, but that seems to be the way of things here. People very rarely seem to be able to diagree about strategy without being jerks about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or this:

[ QUOTE ]
I want you in my games, Chief. I'd run you over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a pretty easy fold pre-flop. Our opinions can differ. But running a hot-cold pre-flop sim and counting on implied odds is not really a good way to evalute one's pre-flop decision. It is part of the bigger picture, but only part of it.

For example, I can make the same argument in a similar circumstance and one that is ludicrous, but it still satisfies the criteria you're laying out to justify the call here. TAGish UTG, with reasonable pre-flop standards, opens. Four others, also with reasonable PF standards coldcall. There's a player or two who is reasonable and semi-aggressive, but the others are generally slightly loose and mostly passive post-flop -- they're pretty easy to read, so you'll generally know when they're sitting on a strong hand. You're in the BB with 94o and the pot is laying 11:1 to call here and you're closing the action. 9% equity is all you need to make this call, and think about the bets you'll make up when you hit the flop hard; the implied odds are very solid here -- just add them up and I think you'll be surprised. And our equity?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

10,381,392,216 games 86.734 secs 119,692,303 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 17.2797 % 16.07% 01.21% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, QJs, JTs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 16.0954 % 15.00% 01.10% { 99-22, ATs-A8s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 3: 17.0302 % 16.97% 00.06% { 99-22, ATs-A8s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 4: 18.9301 % 17.33% 01.60% { 99-22, ATs-A8s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 5: 19.3282 % 17.99% 01.34% { 99-22, ATs-A8s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 6: 11.3365 % 11.14% 00.20% { 94o }

Folding this 94o pre-flop would be an error. A clear error, obviously.

ArturiusX

08-18-2005, 01:00 AM

Now if the hand were Q9s, I'd call preflop. But Q9o just doesn't win enough pots.

Kirg

08-18-2005, 01:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's only got 16% equity against the likely range if you stay in until the river, Tilts. There are many times you won't be able to call the flop for your backdoor straight or flush or two pair or trips or whatever which is why your equity numbers are deceiving. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

First thing I thought when I read this thread was "I see TiltsMcFabulous (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2805331&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1) made a new account"

<ul type="square"> Playing bad cards from the BB for a raise / Check
Arguing with anyone who says he should have folded / Check
Insulting the better 2+2 posters / Check
[/list]

baronzeus

08-18-2005, 01:19 AM

Please tell me that he's seriously banned.

Kirg

08-18-2005, 01:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(perhaps you need to think a bit more about why the odds of a favourable flop don't have to be huge to make the flop call correct here...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Phoenix, AZ

Hmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, it's Tilts (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=2763385 &Forum=f3&Words=favourable&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&M ain=2757192&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=39200&d aterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldert ype=&bodyprev=1#Post2763385)

baronzeus

08-18-2005, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(perhaps you need to think a bit more about why the odds of a favourable flop don't have to be huge to make the flop call correct here...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Phoenix, AZ

Hmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, it's Tilts (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=2763385 &Forum=f3&Words=favourable&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&M ain=2757192&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=39200&d aterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldert ype=&bodyprev=1#Post2763385)

[/ QUOTE ]

The funny thing about the Phoenix Arizona thing is that he changed it immediately AFTER I accused him of being the Matador in another thread. Bahahahah. You can find it easily in the "What did I do right and wrong in this hand?" Thread or whatever.

pistol78

08-18-2005, 04:50 AM

Fold Preflop

7.5:1 is not nearly good enough to justify playing this hand. Make the odds 11:1 or something and you might have some room for debate.

Nates post and quiz reflect conditions from a LATE POSITION STEAL RAISE. That is not the case here.

Q9 is dominated more then you think.

With this logic should we be calling with any 2?

If not, then what are the minimum hands that we should be playing?

I appreciate the effort of an instructional post, but I do not think that calling here is profitable.

P.S Given Mp3's stats he can easily be on a draw type hand rather then a Set/2pair. 98 for example 45 XXs, and I dont think folding the flop is this easy. NOt saying that its not correct, but saying that I dont think its that easy, escpecially considering the fact that we played Q9 in the first place.

But, then again, thats exactly why we dont play Q9.