Call down mode, too weak?

[meow_meow]

My read on villain here is that he will raise flops with weak hands and draws, wait for the turn with a real hand. Given that, I'm not too happy with my play here, it seems so weak, yet I find myself falling into call down mode so often when I'm raised on the flop.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB

Thoughts?

[cdxx]

ugh, i hate these hands. i think turn is a fold

Do you know what he could be coldcalling you with here? If he's raising the flop with a straight draw he has now paired up on the turn, if he's raising this flop with any pair then you're wrong to call his turn bet, and if he's raising you with overcards then you might be drawing to 3 outs (unlikely assuming the preflop action but you can't exclude it as a possibility). I'm not talking about playing scared poker, but I think this is definetly a turn fold.

[wackjob]

Put a raise in here somewhere or fold.

[goofball]

OOP I would just checkfold the turn.

[zimmer879]

I probably play this the same given your read. On the turn you very likely have 5 clean outs when behind, with tne Td being a little shaky, plus you're ahead of diamond draws and bluffs. I'm folding to a river diamond though.

[Sakuraba]

What range of hands do you think he will cold call your preflop raise with? I think that is pretty important here.

By "raise flops with weak hands", do you mean nothing (a total bluff) or weak made hands like bottom pair or A high?

[Transference]

I'm thinking more and more that this is a very reasonable line against this villian.

I'm assuming A10 does very well against his range here, most of the time you ahead on this flop.

You could raise this flop for value. Then youll find yourself betting the turn of course. If he often c/rs you with fresh draw, an old one, or an ugly card your going to have a hard time calling with A high.

If he is consisntently this aggressive calling down with the best hand might be a favorable line. Let him fire away and force him to slowly adjust after hes thrown chips at your for a while.

[wackjob]

I think you are looking at a little PP all too often. You either need to make a move on the pot(IE C/R the turn) or just give up. I doubt you are going to showdown your A-hi and win.

[Sakuraba]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know what he could be coldcalling you with here? If he's raising the flop with a straight draw he has now paired up on the turn, if he's raising this flop with any pair then you're wrong to call his turn bet, and if he's raising you with overcards then you might be drawing to 3 outs (unlikely assuming the preflop action but you can't exclude it as a possibility). I'm not talking about playing scared poker, but I think this is definetly a turn fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your general thought process, but on the other hand, if the villian has overcards, the villian might be drawing to 3 or 6 outs. Also, he could have a flush draw, which did not get there. (The flush draw is slightly less likely because we have the ace of diamonds and people love to coldcall raises with suited aces.)

I think this really boils down to the range of hands that the villian will coldcall with and how often the villian will raise this flop on a draw or bluff. (particularly on how often he will bluff) How often he raises the flop with an 8 also factors in and the hero thinks that is unlikely.

Against some players, I think this is an easy and profitable calldown.

[wackjob]

Misread the river card again, I SUCK. I think I might need glasses since i tend to see a 6 in an 8 alot on the computer. Anyways, I still think a C/R on the turn is the way to go, but showing down A-hi has its merits because of what I said in my previous post about villain having a small PP.

[Sakuraba]

[ QUOTE ]
but showing down A-hi has its merits because of what I said in my previous post about villain having a small PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think showing doen A hi might have merit here, but you realize a small pocket pair wins, right?

I might be misunderstanding your post.

[wackjob]

lkjsdlafkjdlkfajdfjadfkjadlkfjlsdakj (my brain hurts)

Ok, I triple misread the post &amp; will stop posting for a while cause I appear blind. Scratch my 2nd post &amp; I still think my first(and correct reading) comments on the hand are good.

I think you are not beating anyone here with A-hi even 1 in 20 times. I think you either have to make that play for the pot on the turn or give up on the turn.

Just to clarify, the board at the river looks like: 8 8 5 7 8!!!

[Sakuraba]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are not beating anyone here with A-hi even 1 in 20 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally disagree with this. There are a lot of players you are ahead of way more than that. We don't have enough information to know if this is one of them though.

The preflop read is really important here. If the villian is really tight, the hero is almost never ahead here because he would not coldcall with anything that we beat except something like KQs. He would probably only coldcall with better aces or pocket pairs.

If the villian is loose and likes to bluff (particularly against the hero), we are ahead of a lot of total bluffs or semibluff flush draws.

[Transference]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are not beating anyone here with A-hi even 1 in 20 time

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I totally disagree with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[TTChamp]

Does any one check the flop here???

[Apocalypse]

(havent read other reply's)
Since he plays weak hands the same way, but of course aint going anywhere when you force control in this hand, checkcalling (how dreadful it may be) seems like the only thing to do. With the hands hes coldcalling with i guess the chance of him being on a draw on this flop is bigger than him having a pair should make you show an automatic profit on opting to call down in these instances. If you would know that he'd 3-bet hands like AJo and up preflop that would help in the fact you know you are holding the nuts-no-pair in this HU-match. These kinds of hands suck though, and they will suck for all of eternity. We're with you....

[meow_meow]

Thanks guys.
I think part of the reason that I called down here, although it didn't occur to me conciously, was that villain would have 3-bet preflop with a lot of the hands that beat me here: AJ and up, 99 and up. His cold-calling range is probably something like Axs, any two broadway (except AK-AJ), and any pp&lt;99.

I think folding the turn UI would have been ok, but it felt like a flush draw (I don't have the balls to cr the turn with no pair no draw, but maybe I need to grow some), and obviously if I'm ahead on the turn I'm ahead on the river, and I think this is probably one of those rivers where check-calling is better than bet-folding.

Anyway, it wasn't a flush draw. Villain showed QJo to my surprise. Meh.

[danzasmack]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks guys.
I think part of the reason that I called down here, although it didn't occur to me conciously, was that villain would have 3-bet preflop with a lot of the hands that beat me here: AJ and up, 99 and up. His cold-calling range is probably something like Axs, any two broadway (except AK-AJ), and any pp&lt;99.

I think folding the turn UI would have been ok, but it felt like a flush draw (I don't have the balls to cr the turn with no pair no draw, but maybe I need to grow some), and obviously if I'm ahead on the turn I'm ahead on the river, and I think this is probably one of those rivers where check-calling is better than bet-folding.

Anyway, it wasn't a flush draw. Villain showed QJo to my surprise. Meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

good post. good call down.