Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks

[punter11235]

Hello all,

Ive just played my usual session of limit just for relax. Besides that I donated little money to 5/10 regulars I came across this problem :

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

River: (7 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

How's my play ? Is calling a raise with this hand ok or bad ? Is calling down line ok ? or should I raise and fold to 3bet somewhere ? Villain seems pretty standard, didnt make anything strange yet but I dont exactly know what his raising hand range is here; assume its standard for 5/10 (whatever that mean).
Thanks for help

[DemonDeac]

hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[bandfan]

im check-raising the flop

[punter11235]

Hmm I would like to know what my standard plan should be here. Checkraise flop and fold after 3bet and turn bet ?
Checkraise flop and bet if only called ?

[ QUOTE ]
lol

[/ QUOTE ]

not very constructive.. i dont see the point in posts like these.

i'd c/r flop and if just called, lead out on the turn. fold if he raises on the turn.

if he 3bets the flop then i'd call and then fold to a bet on the turn if unimproved.

however, AT is not a very +EV hand against a raise so i'd play it as carefully as i could. (i cant help the c/r though. maybe this is why my AF is &gt;3!)

[Nick C]

I would have folded preflop. (I don't like ATs versus a raise very much.) However, MP3 could be trying to isolate MP1, and you are at least suited, so I don't think the call is terrible, from the SB.

Postflop seems all right to me, really. The pot's only 3-way, and if you're ahead, MP1 probably doesn't have much chance of outdrawing you anyway, on that flop, so putting pressure on him doesn't seem all that essential to me. And you're probably either way ahead or way behind MP3.

Checkraising the flop could be a way to try to figure out which it is, but doing so also provides information for MP3. And if, for instance, you checkraise the flop and get called and then get popped on the turn, you've only saved one small bet over just calling down, at the cost of giving up your chance to spike your kicker on the river (which would be worth about one SB at the moment when you'd be folding).

If your checkraise gets 3-bet, then that could save you money if you then check-fold the turn unimproved. But MP3 won't necessarily cooperate like this. And while I don't think your opponent will 3-bet with a hand like QQ and then fire again on the turn particularly often, it will happen occasionally and will cost you money when it does.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you post this?

[L_Dude]

I'll bite. I don't like the call preflop, but it's close. I'm probably folding unless this player is a very aggressive preflop raiser or has made more than his share of attempts to steal blinds.

Assuming I'm playing the hand, I definitely check raise the flop and lead out on the turn if not 3 bet on the flop. If 3 bet on the flop, I call and check-fold unimproved on the turn.

The title, being dominated sucks, gives away the ending or is very misleading.

I have a tough time understanding why calling down is a better line. But if you're going to do that, then how about c/c c/c b/f?

[punter11235]

Thanks for this analysis. I think I am slowly getting proper lines I should be thinking along while playing thanks to posts like these.
Also from other response :

[ QUOTE ]
But if you're going to do that, then how about c/c c/c b/f?


[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know maybe its better line. I think I have some hopes that Villain wont value bet with AJ and only hand that is calling my bet and not betting the river is A8s (wihch is not very probable I think)

Btw. Is call/call/fold line ridiculous ?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
The title, being dominated sucks, gives away the ending or is very misleading.

I have a tough time understanding why calling down is a better line. But if you're going to do that, then how about c/c c/c b/f?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think c/c c/c b/f is another line to consider here. I personally don't use it as much as many of the posters here, but that could be to my detriment. In any event, though, I don't think I'd want to bet-fold the river without a read.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw. Is call/call/fold line ridiculous ?

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a pretty read-based line to take. You'd really need to have a pretty good idea that MP3 would not value-bet on the river with, say, JJ or KQ but would instead take a free showdown, after having been called on the flop and turn. Also, there are players who will fire that last barrel with, say, QJs.

(And one potential drawback of checkraising the flop, by the way, is that it could blow MP3 off of a hand like KQ that has hardly any chance against you at all.)

[punter11235]

I gave it away by the title of the thread. He showe AJo and he took the pot.
Thanks all for comments. I still dont have much feel for these games, for example I dont know if many Villains would bet 3 times with sth worse than top pair.
Preflop comments... I think I will fold it next time.

Best wishes

[Carmine]

That's why I don't like the PF call. Unless you hit a flush draw your options are to C/R the flop winning the minimum from KK. Lose a decent amount to an aggressive KK that pushes you off a better hand. Lose 2.5 BB postflop when calling down and being dominated. Win 1.5BB from KK postflop. If you do make a flush there are not many players to build a pot.

If there were a bunch of CC'ers between you and PF raiser it may be more correct because of the flush potential but then we are even more concerned about domination(unless we are talking about loose CC'ers)so I'm not really sure what would be correct then.

FWIW, I do make this call with AQo (unless PF raiser is a rock)and just C/call the whole way. Is this bad??

If you were in the BB then I would make the call at a 50% discount.

In summary, I don't think the call is super bad, but I think it is a $$ loser in the longrun.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you post this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the suggested line and supporting reasoning is rubbish.

This hand is trivial to play. Fold preflop but if you insist on calling then the correct line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold unless Hero improves to aces and tens.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you post this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahaha. I would assume because of the line suggested. Preflop really depends on your opponent. But most of the time, it is a fold.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
correct line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold unless Hero improves to aces and tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
correct line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold unless Hero improves to aces and tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

[JinX11]

I would fold pre-flop and thank myself when he shows AQ and takes the pot.

However, since I misclicked "Call", this seems like your quintessential "Way ahead, way behind" scenario; given your position and a drawless board, the standard line for me there is check-call the flop, check-call the turn, bet the river and fold to a raise.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only slight idea who your ex-gf was (OOT forum) but I suspect that's mean that the answer for my question is too obvious to give it ? (Or is it your love to all kind of puzzles ...)

Best wishes /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only slight idea who your ex-gf was (OOT forum) but I suspect that's mean that the answer for my question is too obvious to give it ? (Or is it your love to all kind of puzzles ...)

Best wishes /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The brilliance behind the c/c, c/c, b/f line is that you lose the least when you're behind, make the most when you're ahead and never fold the best hand because you c/r and he 3-bet with a worse hand.

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only slight idea who your ex-gf was (OOT forum) but I suspect that's mean that the answer for my question is too obvious to give it ? (Or is it your love to all kind of puzzles ...)

Best wishes /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The brilliance behind the c/c, c/c, b/f line is that you lose the least when you're behind, make the most when you're ahead and never fold the best hand because you c/r and he 3-bet with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

/thread

[angst]

Easy pre flop fold if you ask me. You are out of position and the game is 9-handed. Bet the flop and fold to a raise. If called on the flop, check the turn and fold to a bet. But I suck at poker, so what do I know.

[rmarotti]

YSSCKY

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
The brilliance behind the c/c, c/c, b/f line is that you lose the least when you're behind, make the most when you're ahead and never fold the best hand because you c/r and he 3-bet with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I understand the point of this line. But it only works if B is more probable than A where :
A - (he miss his value bet with AQ or AJ) or (he decides to fire 3rd barell with QQ/JJ/A8)
B - he will call river bet with QQ/JJ/A8

Iam not sure its the case here.

Best wishes

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The brilliance behind the c/c, c/c, b/f line is that you lose the least when you're behind, make the most when you're ahead and never fold the best hand because you c/r and he 3-bet with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I understand the point of this line. But it only works if B is more probable than A where :
A - (he miss his value bet with AQ or AJ) or (he decides to fire 3rd barell with QQ/JJ/A8)
B - he will call river bet with QQ/JJ/A8

Iam not sure its the case here.

Best wishes




[/ QUOTE ]

He'll call your bet with worse hands a lot. If you don't bet, he'll check behind with worse hands that would have called a bet a lot. By checking, you allow him to check behind is worse hands that would have called, but value bet you with his better hands.

[erby]

[ QUOTE ]
im check-raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im check-raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

omg

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im check-raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

omg

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[callmedonnie]

I'm not sure about the flop call. Since there is another player already in, if you have confidence he will come along it's alright. I don't like calling raises with this hand in this position .

After the flop you have to take some action at some point. I think the c/r is probably best. If he 3 bets you need to call and c/f the turn, unless you catch a 10 or a spade.

Just calling down is really weak. If you have the best hand and you are losing value and letting people draw on you cheap. If you don't have the best hand you have no way of knowing and are just contributing aimlessly.

Against a PFR, I'm folding this puppy. Yeah, you have nut flush if 3 spades show up, but the odds (PF) are you won't make it.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Just calling down is really weak. If you have the best hand and you are losing value and letting people draw on you cheap. If you don't have the best hand you have no way of knowing and are just contributing aimlessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to rethink this--most of the people who posted in this thread do. What happens when we raise when we're ahead? What happens when we raise when we're behind?

I agree with folding pre-flop.

[damaniac]

I really so no reason to raise much of anywhere in this hand. I think it should be pretty obvious why. I'm surprised so many people advocate a check-raise. What do you expect it to accomplish?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
correct line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold unless Hero improves to aces and tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Math students don't have girlfriends.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Just calling down is really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. So we've already used one tired, incorrect cliche that constantly appears on these boards in this thread: "[raise so you have a] better way of knowing where you're at" and here's a second: "[not raising] is really weak." Why don't you guys try to "outplay him postflop too?"

Better yet, minimize the number of bets you put in when you're behind and maxmize the number you make when you're ahead. You have to think about villain's range of hands here and what line you can take that will acheive this: keep him from folding a worse hand when you're ahead and keep from putting in lots of bets when behind. You don't need to raise for information; you already know you're crushed or crushing and what are you going to do with this extra information that might save you .5 SB? Fold? Taking passive lines is okay; you have to find the line that maximizes your overall EV against his range of hands. That is how you outplay someone postflop.

Now please, stop wasting bets to get information, realize that it's okay to call sometimes and start understanding the keys to limit hold'em.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

Math students don't have girlfriends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speak for yourself. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Awesome. So we've already used one tired, incorrect cliche that constantly appears on these boards in this thread: "[raise so you have a] better way of knowing where you're at" and here's a second: "[not raising] is really weak." Why don't you guys try to "outplay him postflop too?"

Better yet, minimize the number of bets you put in when you're behind and maxmize the number you make when you're ahead. You have to think about villain's range of hands here and what line you can take that will acheive this: keep him from folding a worse hand when you're ahead and keep from putting in lots of bets when behind. You don't need to raise for information; you already know you're crushed or crushing and what are you going to do with this extra information that might save you .5 SB? Fold? Taking passive lines is okay; you have to find the line that maximizes your overall EV against his range of hands. That is how you outplay someone postflop.

Now please, stop wasting bets to get information, realize that it's okay to call sometimes and start understanding the keys to limit hold'em.


[/ QUOTE ]
vnh.

[bandfan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just calling down is really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. So we've already used one tired, incorrect cliche that constantly appears on these boards in this thread: "[raise so you have a] better way of knowing where you're at" and here's a second: "[not raising] is really weak." Why don't you guys try to "outplay him postflop too?"

Better yet, minimize the number of bets you put in when you're behind and maxmize the number you make when you're ahead. You have to think about villain's range of hands here and what line you can take that will acheive this: keep him from folding a worse hand when you're ahead and keep from putting in lots of bets when behind. You don't need to raise for information; you already know you're crushed or crushing and what are you going to do with this extra information that might save you .5 SB? Fold? Taking passive lines is okay; you have to find the line that maximizes your overall EV against his range of hands. That is how you outplay someone postflop.

Now please, stop wasting bets to get information, realize that it's okay to call sometimes and start understanding the keys to limit hold'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank you for this post. i still have a lot to learn...

[Stinkybeaver]

While I do understand the reasons behind the passive line.

Why is ATs a fold from SB...?

Is it a fold to any raise.. (openraise from MP/LP that could be a steal)

or is it a fold b/c there already is one limper in this hand..?

I'm calling this and going with the passive line here, but If fold is the better EV move then tell why that is...?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

Why is ATs a fold from SB...?


[/ QUOTE ]

ATs is just not a favorite against most villain's range of hands here.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is ATs a fold from SB...?

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I fold this hand here is becuase the raiser is raising behind a limper, making it much less likely he's raising light. If this were a bigger field, sure, I might take a flier on a hitting something big. If the raise was an opening one from an aggro CO, I'd go ahead and three bet him. You just need to be conscious of who is raising, what positon they're in, and what they're likely to raise with in that spot.

But its close. If there were another limper, I think I'd call. But I'd like one more. Might just be me. The thing you have to be careful of is one error leading to the next. So, even if we concede that calling with ATs here is a mistke, its prob a very, very, small one. *But* if you can't find a fold post-flop when its obvious you're beat you should really just ditch it pre-flop.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
im check-raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

On a different board I might consider it. But on this particular board; it is likely the best hand has the second best hand in real bad shape, the 2nd best hand has the worst hand in really bad shape, and the worst hand is simply providing overlay for the inevitable frustrating call down.

I don't mind letting the third guy stick it out, when it is likely he has 4 or less outs.

[flair1239]

Also if you are looking for info, the third guy sometimes gets you off cheap, in a situation where you were already beat anyway. (IE a turn Checkraise, that you do not need to call).

[flair1239]

As for the PF call from the SB. I don't hate it. The Hijack raises lots of hands that we beat if he is aggressive (range AA-77, AKs-A7s, AK-AT, KQs-K9s, KQ-KT, QJs-QTs, JTs,... I would also roll with a couple off suit hands if MP1 was weak).

Also if the BB comes along we have a multi-way pot. Unless I know MP3 is passive pre-flop 5%PFR or under... for example... I am going to play.

With no reads in the 5/10 this is a Hi-jack isolation raise more often than not and you are less likely to be dominated than normal (READ... less likely does not mean unlikely).

[W. Deranged]

My only comment here is that Jason_t's contribution to this thread is nothing short of awesome.

I may well have misplayed this hand but everyone really should realize that Jason_t's line here is basically the only correct way to play this hand.

[callmedonnie]

Forgive me. I was wrong. I now see the light.

[Bob Moss]

Hi punter,

I only read the first few replies and I'm seeing a lot of people wanting to play this hand more aggressively, but I think that's foolish. Against an unknown at 5/10 I'd probably dump this preflop especially since you're out of position. However, since you did call, I think you played the postflop as well as you could. Sometimes I like to bet out on the river if it's any kind of scare card (that is, I don't think he'll raise with a better hand) so he can call with his pocket pair, but I don't think this is the time to do that.

B

[punter11235]

Thanks for answer. I think that suggestes c/c/b line is good but I am still not sure about it.
Its great that I got so many helpful replies. Before posting this I was happy about the way I played it. Now I can see that calling with A10s preflop is not so good and I have some food for thought about c/c/b line (I would never think of it by myself).
Thanks everybody for interesting thread.

Best wishes

[flair1239]

I ran some Pokerstove simulations this weekend.

For the raiser I used the following range:

AA-88, Suited broadways, AK-ATo, KQ-KTo, Axs, K8s and up.

My simulation assumed a weak limper. I gave him a pretty broad range of: any suited, off suit connectors, PP below JJ, Any broadway.

I ran the sim two ways. One just against the aggressive raiser and one against both.

IMO, with a weak limper and an aggressive raiser this is definetly worth a call. In both sims our equity was almost a deadheat with the raiser. After you adjust it to account for his positional advantage, you would still be in OK shape with the poor player in to provide an overlay for you.

However if the limper was a better player with a tighter range, then it makes it less worthwhile.

So for the pre-flop call, I will say it depends on how bad the limper is and how aggressive the raiser is.

The more aggressive the raiser, the more likely I call.

The weaker the limper, the more likely I call.

Completely situational pre-flop play, by no means an automuck.

[ErrantNight]

you mean i drop off the face of the earth for months and there's still people who don't check/call check/call bet here?

presuming, of course, there was some really good reason for not folding preflop...

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you post this?

[/ QUOTE ]\

He is posting this because the line recommended is contrary to the standard line taken here at 2p2. I do think that the king on the river makes the standard line problematic, however, since the previous action would be highly inconsistent with taking the standard line, given this river card.

[pokerjunky]

Sorry, I know this is an old thread but I seem to think that if we're going to c/c, c/c, b/f, then we should c/c the flop and bet fold the turn. This would cost us 1BB less than the former line and not allow this to get checked thru. If we get raised we can easily dump it. Getting raised would also mean that the only outs we had if we were behind were the three tens, in which case we didn't have odds to call the turn bet anyway.

Just my .02 even though that may be all its worth.

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just calling down is really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. So we've already used one tired, incorrect cliche that constantly appears on these boards in this thread: "[raise so you have a] better way of knowing where you're at" and here's a second: "[not raising] is really weak." Why don't you guys try to "outplay him postflop too?"

Better yet, minimize the number of bets you put in when you're behind and maxmize the number you make when you're ahead. You have to think about villain's range of hands here and what line you can take that will acheive this: keep him from folding a worse hand when you're ahead and keep from putting in lots of bets when behind. You don't need to raise for information; you already know you're crushed or crushing and what are you going to do with this extra information that might save you .5 SB? Fold? Taking passive lines is okay; you have to find the line that maximizes your overall EV against his range of hands. That is how you outplay someone postflop.

Now please, stop wasting bets to get information, realize that it's okay to call sometimes and start understanding the keys to limit hold'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just screenshotted this post and made it my background.

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I know this is an old thread but I seem to think that if we're going to c/c, c/c, b/f, then we should c/c the flop and bet fold the turn. This would cost us 1BB less than the former line and not allow this to get checked thru. If we get raised we can easily dump it. Getting raised would also mean that the only outs we had if we were behind were the three tens, in which case we didn't have odds to call the turn bet anyway.

Just my .02 even though that may be all its worth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this because it sets up confusion on the river if opponent calls your turn bet. Is the river line to bet/fold again?

Also... while you may be saving more when you are beat, you are certainly winning less when you are winning. I think the whole point of this thread was balancing those two possibilities.

PS --- Does the C/C, C/C, B/F line alter at all if opponent checks behind us on the turn? Namely, when we lead out again on the river, do we still fold to a raise?