Meeting with David Sklansky

[asdtexas]

I do not want to start a RGP like controversy, but have decided to post this after some careful thought.

I was in Las Vegas on business 10 days ago and stopped at the Bellagio to play poker. When I arrived I saw David Sklansky. He was at the counter in the back purchasing chips and was by himself. I asked him if his name was David and he nodded. I told him that I have read all of his books and enjoyed them very much. He said "Oh" and walked away. I still can't believe how rude he acted.

By way of background, I am the CEO of a company which employs about 350 people. Last week I convened a meeting to discuss customer relations. Particular stress was placed on having our supervisors monitor customer interaction with our employees. If anything like this ever happens, I will terminate the employee. In fact, if my employees treat the people who work for them in a condescending and rude manner, we will take action.

If poker teaches life lessons, I learned one at the Bellagio.

[Jimbo]

Perhaps his name was David Mergatroid and he never wrote a book in his life! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[glen]

"Mergatroid" lol. . .

[Anadrol 50]

What is wrong with 'oh' ? At least he didn't tell you to get lost. Do you think that since you read all of his books, he owes you a conversation ?

[Ray Zee]

well if you had 50 or so people want to have a conversation with you everytime you went someplace, you might feel differently. maybe he dosent want to talk poker with everyone that wants his advice. maybe he should have been more polite, who knows, but maybe he had important thoughts and didnt want to lose the trend to make small talk with a stranger. its his choice.
he was buying chips, his businees time. if during your business time people come to your office just to talk would you see all of them or just brush them off. i bet they dont get past your secretary.
you are so wrong here pal.

[Clarkmeister]

Ray,

I don't think the initial poster was asking for a 15 minute interview. I suspect that if the one word issued by David was "thanks" rather than "oh", it would have left an entirely different impression on the poster.

This provides, of course, that the story is accurate, which it may not be.

[Acesover8s]

I can relate here. Constantly while playing online people come up and say, "are you the acesover8s that posts on 2+2?"

to which i used to say "yes".

And then they respond with either:

You don't understand anything about poker do you?
Good, i'm reading your posts right now to figure out how to play against you.
You sure TALK a good game.

or occasionally it will just be a string of asterisks, but I dont know what that means.

So now, I just say, "oh, no, I'm Aces Mergatroid, totally different guy"

[Jimbo]

"So now, I just say, "oh, no, I'm Aces Mergatroid, totally different guy"

Heh Acesover8s I think one of the newer posters here met your brother David this past weekend. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Big Al]

Ray:

I tend to agree with Clark. If the story is accurate, the gentleman simply said he had read David's books and enjoyed them. A simple thank you is not too much to ask. If the guy starts trying to talk poker with Dave or pick his brain, then Dave has the right to blow him off. The guy has spent money buying Dave's books, which puts money in Dave's pockets. If someone says I read your book and enjoyed it, is it really too much to expect a simple thank you? I do think this guy is over reacting a bit, but he is not as off base as you state also.--Big Al--

[D.J.]

I understand what you're saying here, he did seem a bit rude and short the way you described it, it's not like he was in the middle of a hand or anything. That's no way to treat a customer, which is what you are to him. I'm no superstar athlete or anything, but when I'm at the ballfield and there's a few people that want autographs I gladly give them and say thanks for coming out to the game, b/c they in fact are my customers. My checks say Cleveland Indians, but the fans pay my salary. You just can not blow people off like that.

-D.J.

[BruceZ]

I recently met a large number of big name professional bowlers during a pro-am and autograph/practice session. They all gave me autographs, but not one acted especially congenial. I even had one guy's book with me, and I told him how much the book helped my game. He grunted something back and signed it. This was at an event where they are there specifically to give autographs and be ambassadors to the sport, and bowlers are the most approachable athletes in the world. I don't believe that these people are all rude guys. When you have a barrage of people week after week trying to get a piece of you and saying the same things to you everywhere you go while you are trying to practice, it has to become nearly impossible to always be upbeat, and if they were they would likely be insincere. I'm not going to collect autographs anymore, and I'll only talk to famous people if I have business with them. It isn't worth the hassle of having to bother them just to have their autograph or to be able to say I met them.

[David Sklansky]

If I didn't say thanks I must have been preoccupied. On the other hand it is important to understand that his employee analogy is not apt. I could be the rudest person in the world and it doesn't change the fact that my books will help him. Even the bowler analogy is wrong. If they are jerks you can punish them by not watching bowling at insignicant cost to yourself.

The point I am trying to make here, a bit off the subject, Is that it is very advantageous to gain expertise that is not easily duplicatable and that helps others achieve their goals. If an asteroid was heading toward earth we would free the unabomber if he was one of the few who might be able to stop it. That's an extreme example but you get my drift. If any of this fellow's employees was indispensible to his profits, he could say "oh" when he should have said thanks, all he wants.

[mike l.]

my guess is oz was on tilt, buying in more to play even higher, and not in the mood for chit-chat. maybe he just lost a big horse race, or perhaps the 80-160 omaha 8 was proving a bit tough that night.

poker players are jerks and losers, even the smarter ones. big deal.

[BruceZ]

Even the bowler analogy is wrong.

It was meant to be more of an inequality than an analogy. If they can't even be nice when it is in their best interest and job description to do so, and during their appointed 2 hours a week to be nice, then it must be that much more difficult when it isn't as much in one's best interest.

So I'm trying to defend Sklansky with an example, and his response is basically "It's different with me; you have to buy my books no matter what I do; I have you all over a barrel. HA!".

That is correct.

Is that it is very advantageous to gain expertise that is not easily duplicatable and that helps others achieve their goals.

That's for sure, in fact I have personally used this very principle combined with poker type logic learned from TOP to make people do things they ordinarily would never do, at great financial benefit to myself. More on that some other time. On the other hand, this assumes that people will always act rationally; sometimes they do not. Some people won't buy your books anymore if you're not nice even though that decision costs them money. Another issue is that many people are stupid. They don't know or don't believe that your books are a necessity, and the rudeness factor tips their decision in favor of buying someone else's books.

Another way this is sometimes expressed is that "to succeed you must either be very nice or very good". This is usually an admonition to be nice, since very few can be very good. You prefer to be good; I prefer to be good too.

[Anadrol 50]

Lee Jones is a really nice guy when you meet him......

[Ulysses]

Another way this is sometimes expressed is that "to succeed you must either be very nice or very good". This is usually an admonition to be nice, since very few can be very good. You prefer to be good; I prefer to be good too.

FWIW, many of the most successful people I know happen to be both very good and very nice.

[Ed Miller]

FWIW, many of the most successful people I know happen to be both very good and very nice.

Though I am certainly not a "successful" person... at least not yet... I think it is of crucial importance to be both good and nice. One without the other ends up just being sad.

[Jimbo]

Good post BruceZ. I believe we have been missing the point, at least I have and believe subconsciounsly David has as well. If the original poster had approached David in the following manner the conversation might have gone much differently.

"Hello is your name David?" David says "Yes." "My name is XXXXXX and I have several hundred employees who I believe could benefit from your books. I personally have read them all." David says, "Oh, Thanks", and walks away.

See how big a difference a little flattery and the promise of future profits may make?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi David:

You're fired.

Best wishes,
Mason

[jasonHoldEm]

LOL...

Mr. Sklansky, let me be the first to offer you a job as my poker coach...I can't pay much (maybe I can swing $10 an hour), but seeing how you're unemployed now you're just gonna have to take what you can get.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif (please) /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
jHE

[andyfox]

[andyfox]

I think you're missing his point. No one person in any well-run organization is indispenable. An organization that is rude to its customers loses them. Even forgetting about common courtesy, it's negative EV not to say please and thank you.

In the poker world, you're a celebrity. You make a portion of your income from selling books. You've now had two opportunities to say thank you to a customer, but you prefer to tell us your theory of "oh" and "thank you." There's more to life than math, at least for some of us.

I think Mike L. may have gotten it just right.

[SunTzu68]

David,

We still have your job opening as an Actuary in NYC/NJ. Please let us know when you will be available to negotiate your salary.


/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[jasonHoldEm]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Please let us know when you will be available to negotiate your salary.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said $10 an hour! I was first! You can't have him!

Seriously though, I'm not asking for much...you can just sit there and say "Oh" the whole time...I'm sure I'd learn something just by being in the same room.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif
jHE

[El Dukie]

Seriously though, I'm not asking for much...you can just sit there and say "Oh" the whole time...I'm sure I'd learn something just by being in the same room.



Poker Osmosis? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[BruceZ]

No one person in any well-run organization is indispenable.

Was Michael Jordan indispensable to the Bulls winning 6 championships? Does this mean the Bulls were not well-run? If they were not, I think most would agree this was evidenced by them letting him go, not by his being indispensable.

Most managers state that no one should be indispensable. I think they state this either because a) that is what they are taught in manager school, b) it would place them in an extremely uncomfortable position to believe otherwise, or c) it is a bluff to keep the cost of performance down. It is true that most managers are not indispensable. It may even be true that no one in an organization is indispensable if the goal of the organization is to sell shoes or something. Fortunately for people like me, there are many organizations with very technical goals in very competitive fields which are not well-run by this definition. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen an organization which was well-run by this definition. The most succesful ones realize that it is much better to have a small number of very talented individuals than a larger number of less talented ones. The ones who do not realize this early will realize it after it is too late, and then I will be there to take their money.

[Clarkmeister]

The Bulls were far more profitable in the two years after Jordan quit (the second time) than they were in his final two years of actual playing.

I know that's not really addressing your point, but its worth noting.

[Zeno]

Pre-Christmas at the Bellagio; I was at a poker table playing 15-30. I quickly studied an individual that sauntered through the room with a racing form tucked snug under their arm. He was taller than he looks. Gray hair and beard, the beard unflattering enough to be intriguing. His eyes were dimly glazed and limpid. The most notable thing was the pensive and quizzical look on the face – as if he was about to deliver an impromptu speech, or trip over his own feet. Years of practice I mused. I then turned back to concentrate on the poker game and gave him no more thought. I have no idea who he was.

You made a mistake “asdTexas”. You should introduce yourself to another poker player by taking his money. That is the best introduction you can make. If you don’t think you can take his money – then stay away.

-Zeno

[BruceZ]

I once read this article titled "Jerks are Great People". It explained how whether you need to choose a doctor, a mechanic, or whatever, you can usually count on a jerk. The reason is, you can be sure the jerk didn't get to where he's at just by skating by on his personality. In order to succeed while being a jerk, he must be very good at what he does, or else nobody would go to him, and he wouldn't be in business. You can't always be as sure about someone's competence if they are not a jerk. I concur that I have generally been satisfied whenever I have dealt with jerks.

I did have one exception recently. I was choosing a bowling ball drilller, and I was excited to find one who was an enormous jerk. This guy would make you feel like you were an idiot that had no idea what you were even asking for. If you tried to argue with him, he'd openly insult you. He even tried to mimic me once. This was over technical issues that very few amateurs ever even consider, and of which I have done intensive study. I found he treated everyone this way, and one of my teammates was even afraid to go into his shop. He'd yell at people as soon as they walked in the door if they set their balls down in the wrong place. I was completely convinced that I had found the ball driller for me. Well, it turned out he was a poor ball driller, and nobody I know is very happy with his work or his advice. This could be the exception that proves the rule though since he worked for the bowling alley instead of being self-employed, and he hadn't been there very long. So when going out of your way to deal with a jerk, make sure it isn't likely for him to be an incompetent jerk.

[andyfox]

No one doubts that David is a great poker thinker. But a man who says he was too preoccupied to say "thank you" rather than "oh" when a customer pays him a compliment undoubtedly has other brain leakages which call into question his ability to give sound advice.

[andyfox]

And if it takes a mild insult to get him to understand this, then it's a small price to pay.

[BruceZ]

I don't know, Einstein often forgot to put on his shoes before he went out in the snow.

[John Cole]

Bruce,

I made it to "bowling ball driller" and then fell apart. Now that I've changed my underwear, I'll read the rest.

John

[John Cole]

Elwood P. Dowd: "In this world, you can be oh so smart or oh so kind. For years, I was the former. I prefer the latter."

Perhaps it needs to be delivered in Jimmy Stewart's inimitable style, but the point is the same.

John

[scalf]

/forums/images/icons/wink.gif i was playing at bellagio about two years ago...saw a guy who looked like mason, standing by a table, with some checks in his hand. he did not appear to be in game, but did appear a little preoccupied...

anyway, my plane left the next day, and i decided to greet the gr8 one.. i asked him if he was a prominent poker author; and he replied..."yea, i guess that's me."...i then related i was a big fan of his and had all his books and thought they were gr8. mason replied "thank you very much, i'm glad you liked the books"..then sat down in 30-60 g...i guess i had been bugging him while he was sizing up g...sorry m. but i do appreciate meeting you in flesh...

we all need heroes in life...yes we do..gl /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/club.gif

[David Sklansky]

It has often been commented that when engaged in a complex conversation in a restaurant I shut out my surroundings. I believe the propensity to become preoccupied makes it more likely rather than less that someone can give sound poker advice.

As to the original poster, I vaguely remember that he came up to me while I was verifying my chip count. Everybody knows that I usually engage fans in short conversations.

It is important that to understand that I am not defending the practice of being a jerk, or not taking showers or whatever. I simply used his comment that he would fire his employees to point out something off the subject. Namely that if you became indispensible to him or others, most likely due to technical expertise that most don't bother to learn, you could get away with being rude or smelly if you wanted to. That is totally different from saying that you should want to.

[Warren Whitmore]

I also meet David at the Bellagio one day when he was buying chips and said hello. He was quite polite to me. Although I can see his point, if he were not or punched me in the nose, I would still study his material daily.

[Clarkmeister]

David,

Is it really so hard to say "This case was the exception rather than the rule, unfortunately I was distracted and this caused me to be short with the customer/poster. I thank him for his kind words about my books and will be glad to tell him so next time he is in town."?

Instead of posting a simple one line apology, you have posted at length twice about a perceived inaccuracy in his analogy. I'm squarely with Andy on this one.

[Schmed]

it was at a poker room. He was getting his chips. He invited me home to dinner, made me sit in his favorite recliner, got me a pillow for my head, let me have my way with is girlfriend. When I was getting ready to leave his house I said "Oh I forgot to tell you how much I really liked your books " he looked at me and said "oh"....I didn't take offense....

I'm an engineer and I once met a guy who wrote one of my text books. He wasn't engaging in the least....I didn't take offense......

[David Sklansky]

Clarkmeister. The reason I did not reply as you suggested is because of his comment about firing unfriendly employees. He might well fire sloppily dressed employees too.

Had he merely said he was disappointed with my rudeness I would have simply apologized. But his firing comment prompted a retort. Namely that you are not at the whim of a CEO if you make yourself so indispensible that others highly benefit from you but not your replacement.

[andyfox]

A music teacher I had at UCLA had a music teacher at Princeton who lived down the street from Einstein. This man had met Einstein at a party and, knowing that Einstein played the violin, asked if they could get together to make music some day. Einstein apparently muttered something about come to the house. Which the man did. To his surprise, the great man himself answered the door. The man reintroduced himself and asked if they could get together at a convenient time. Einstien stared at him, said "no," and slammed the door.

Great mathmeticians apparently think alike.

[rharless]

"You've now had two opportunities to say thank you to a customer"

I was going to reply earlier today and say "third time's a charm" but I got sidetracked. Based on DS's third post above, however, the old adage does not hold true.

Good post(s) Andy. I'm definitely with you, mike l, et al.

[BruceZ]

Q. What is an engineer's most effective method of birth control?

A. His personality.

[BruceZ]

Why John? Hey, these guys are important. You have to choose them like you would a surgeon. Normally they are just called "pros". Unfortunately, this guy was not a pro, just a bowling ball driller, and that was part of the problem.

[bernie]

gotta agree with clark and andy on this one dave. not matter how you spin it. too bad ya werent a chick. or we could at least look up your dress while you stand on that very high pedestal.

modesty has its benefits.

b

[Schmed]

...drill your balls.... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Michael Davis]

I think this is true only because of skewed data. Much of the profit came from fans who latched on to the Bulls during the Jordan era and didn't leave (at least for the first few years of "rebuilding"). Also, consider that the Bulls had sellouts locked up for years after Jordan's retirement. Sure, it helps that they didn't have to pay his salary, but he is still responsible for a significant portion of the post-Jordan profits for the Bulls.

-Mike

[BruceZ]

I'm an engineer too so I can make these jokes.

[BruceZ]

He's already been fired, no point in apologizing now.

[El Dukie]

As yet another engineer, I have to laugh. It's funny 'cause it's true! Of course, the same applies to mathematicians. Good thing Two Plus Two doesn't employ any of them.... /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[M2d]

I work with engineers, so I can believe it /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[Jimbo]

BruceZ, I was an engineer and this is one reason I left the profession. Another is that I was in oil exploration and in 1983 we were dropping like flies so I went back on the road. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[BruceZ]

I had heard that Einstein was very congenial. He wasn't much of a mathematician though. He depended on others to work out much of the math of his theories.

[andyfox]

So he left it for others to elaborate?

[John Cole]

Bruce,

I really don't know anything about bowling with them big balls, so the idea struck me as silly. I'm sure it's not.

I grew up in a duckpin state.

John

[David Sklansky]

The guy said I was rude. But then he said if he had an employee like that he would fire him. Given the second statement I don't think the average person would any longer feel constrained to offer an apology. My bringing up the fact that he wouldn't fire a rude employee who made the difference in the success or failure of his company, was a totally different subject.

[Tommy Angelo]

"well if you had 50 or so people want to have a conversation with you everytime you went someplace, you might feel differently."

I have, and I don't.

Let me start by saying that I got to this thread late and I just read all the posts so far and:

1) I agree and disagree with everyone on everything

2) Is it just me, or is it dang near impossible to keep track of which posts are replying to whom unless we have a bit more copying and pasting?

Back to Ray:

"well if you had 50 or so people want to have a conversation with you everytime you went someplace, you might feel differently."

I kinda doubt that David is swamped by autograph hounds at the grocery store. I wasn't either, back when I was a somewhat pretty much regionally famous musician who got pestered (loved) and bothered (approached) constantly during gigs, on break, four breaks per night, five nights per week, ten years worth.

It don't hurt to have a practiced smile and hi for all comers, and it ain't hard. But it's still a choice that's nobody else's concern, really.

Tommy

[Tommy Angelo]

"or trip over his own feet."

Which reminds me.

(Hey David, I heard you were an actuary, and I know what that is because my brother is one, so here goes ...)

Did you hear about the extraverted actuary?

He stares at YOUR shoes.

Next:

Do you know the difference between an American actuary and an Italian actuary? The American actuary can tell you how many people out of a hunrdred will die. The Italian actuary can tell you which ones.

Next:

Do you know why the actuary carried a bomb on the plane?

Because he knew the chances of there being two bombs on the same plane was very very small.

[Tommy Angelo]

"In order to succeed while being a jerk, he must be very good at what he does, or else nobody would go to him, and he wouldn't be in business."

David is very good at selling poker books, and it could be that the way David markets his jerkness is darwinially more profitable than being nice. In that case, we are left with a David in the same way with are left with the platypus.

Tommy

[BruceZ]

I'd say they collaborated. Don't get me wrong, his decision to change the Galilean transformation equations which led to special relativity was a bold move and enormously insightful. These had never been seriously questioned by his contemporaries. He may have done the mathematics of special relativity himself, I'm not sure. He was young and probably working alone at that time, and the mathematics is not especially difficult. Why this didn't earn him a Nobel prize I'll never understand; it was only the most important advance in physics since Newton. I think it was mainly because he was awarded one for his explanation of the photoelectric effect instead. He had help with the tensor math of general relativity which also should have qualified for a Nobel IMO. It's not every day that one realizes space-time warps in the presence of matter and gives rise to gravity, I mean come on.

I'm planning to post a non-mathematical explanation of how E=mc^2 comes about from special relativity on the probability forum. This equation is amazing because you might think its derivation would have something to do with fundamental properties of matter or nuclear physics, but it doesn't. It comes about as if out of thin air, entirely from realizations about how measurements of physical quantities change in a moving frame of reference.

[BruceZ]

I'm surprised to hear you were an engineer. I thought you said you didn't have any math aptitude. I realize that many engineers don't use a lot of math once they get out of school, but you must have at least studied calculus and differential equations right? Or were you from that generation of experience based engineers that didn't require a college degree?

Looking for oil can be mathematically intensive, involving inverse convolution and signal processing. Or did you use a forked stick? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif "One day Jimbo was a shootin' at some food, and out of the ground came bublin' crude!"

I thought that petroleum engineers were the highest paid engineers in the mid to late 80s.

[Glenn]

Blah blah Einstein blah. Tesla is where it's at man. Who needs relativity when you have a death ray.

[John Cole]

David,

Gee, at least you could respond to the right post; I was just kidding Bruce about having his bowling ball driller analogy. Apology accepted in advance.

John

[John Cole]

Tommy, what's the difference between an actuary and an economist? A: An actuary has a personality.

[Jimbo]

"I thought that petroleum engineers were the highest paid engineers in the mid to late 80s. We were all overpaid in the early 80's, after 1983/84 many of us were driving Taxi's (not me personally) working at fast food restaurants (nor me again) or went back to doing whatever we had done previously (this was me).

Petrolem engineering and what I did (I provided technical suppport for a new digital well logging data collection system) went hand in hand. I did not initially design the equipment but made field design changes so that it would really work after it got off the drawing board, into production and application in the field. Field engineers such as myself and design engineers were always feuding abut the real world application vs the theory behind the hardware. My degree is a BSEET and although requiring due dilligence at math I never needed to pursue it with the same vigor as you. Since it has been 20 years I can still analyze a well log quite accurately but my capacity to function as an engineer is long gone.

[andyfox]

The guy said he would fire an employee that treated customers as rudely as he perceived you treated him. How does this unconstrain you from feeling the need to offer an apology for rude behavior?

[HDPM]

Typically pointing out someone else's rudeness publically is not seen as a request for an apology. I'm not sure one is due after the post. That does not mean I think David's conduct was ideal, but I think David's posts tend to say that as well. I think this would have been better handled had the original poster sent off a private message to David. That's a nice feature of the forum. And I speculate that David's response would have been different. I think most CEO's would speak privately with an employee before calling them out publically on an issue.

[Gabe]

“I could be the rudest person in the world and it doesn't change the fact that my books will help him.”

Will they? I know they help the few hundred people who, have bought them, and have the intelligence and aptitude to understand and apply concepts they convey. However, your books may hurt thousands of others who have bought them, and do not really understand them. They may now, rather than lose a small amount of money quickly, lose a large amount slowly.

The Unabomber’s primary motivation in destroying the asteroid would be to save the earth or himself. Your motivation in writing your books, I suspect, was to be “recognized” as the greatest authority on gambling theory.

Don’t get me wrong. I’ve spent most of my life in the entertainment business and I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to be recognized. I cannot, however, understand why someone would want to be recognized and then treat an individual who recognizes him rudely. It seems so unsymbiotic.

[scalf]

/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif so whom has better people skills??

hootie or david???

gl /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

[HDPM]

David and it's not close. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[BruceZ]

Tesla was awesome. He was also an obsessive compulsive lunatic. Have you seen the book about him by Margaret Cheney? They sold it at Barnes and Noble along with another book by Thomas Commerford Martin which describes his inventions. Amazing stuff. He had lights in his lab that glowed without being connected to anything. He charged himself up to thousands of volts and shot lightening bolts off is hands from the top of a mountain. Jimbo will appreciate that he was almost a professional quality billiards player. He had the ability to imagine machinery and fine tune it so precisely in his mind that it was often unnecessary to actually build what he had imagined. He had an affliction that heightened all his senses to the point where a fly beating its wings in the next room would give him pounding headaches. He was a poor businessman and did not get anywhere near the financial rewards or credit he deserved. His name should be better known than Edison. It was Tesla's idea for our homes to run on AC while Edison favored DC.

[John Feeney]

"I know they help the few hundred people who, have bought them..."

Just a nitpick, but judging only from my own little book sales, you surely need to add three zeros to get in the ballpark of David's.

Still, the world goes unsaved. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

[BruceZ]

Who needs relativity when you have a death ray.

I'll take an atomic bomb over your death ray.

[Gabe]

Did you read only the phrase that you quoted?

[Glenn]

The death ray was actually a death shield making an entire country inpenatrible to airplanes and missles. Your bombs would be useless /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

Here is an aritcle from the NY Times that was published in 1940 about Tesla's death Ray proposal. What I find especially interesting is that the reporter analyzes the cost based on probability of success which is an unusually informed way to look at things in a major new publication.

'Death Ray' For Planes
The New York Times
September 22, 1940

Nikola Tesla, one of the truly great inventors who celebrated his eighty-fourth birthday on July, 10 tells the writer that he stands ready to divulge to the United States government the secret of his "teleforce," of which he said," airplane motors would be melted at a distance of 250 miles, so that an invisible 'Chinese Wall of Defense' would be built around the country against any enemy attack by an enemy air force, no matter how large.

This "teleforce" is based on an entirely new principle of physics, that "no one has ever dreamed about," different from the principles embodied in the in his inventions relating to the transmission of electrical power from a distance, for which he has received a number of basic patents. This new type of force Mr. Tesla said, would operate through a beam one- hundred-millionth of a square centimeter in diameter, and could be generated from special plant that would cost no more then $2,000,000 and would take only about three months to construct.

A dozen such plants, located at strategic points along the coast, according to Mr. Tesla, would be enough to defend the country against all aerial attack. The beam would melt any engine, whether diesel or gasoline driven, and would also ignite the explosives aboard any bomber. No possible defense against it could be devised, he asserts, as the beam would be all-penetrating.


High Vacuum Eliminated


The beam, he states, involves four new inventions, two of which already have been tested. One of these is a method and apparatus &lt; section not legible eliminating the need for a "high vacuum;" a second is a process for producing "very great electrical force;" third is a method of amplifying this force, and the fourth is a new method for producing "a tremendous repelling electrical force." This would be the projector, or the gun of the system. The voltage for propelling the beam to its objective, according to the inventor, will attain a potential of 80,000,000 volts.

With this enormous voltage, he said, microscopic electrical particles of matter will be catapulted on their mission of defensive destruction. He has been working on this invention, he added, for many years and has made a number of improvements on it.

Mr. Tesla makes one important stipulation. Should the government decide to take up his offer, he would go to work on it at once, but they would have to trust him. He would suffer "no interference from experts."

In ordinary times such a condition would very likely interpose an insuperable obstacle. But times being what they are, and with the nation getting ready to spend billions on national defense, at the same time taking in consideration the reputation of Mr. Tesla as an inventor who always was many years ahead of his time, the question arises whether it may not be advisable to take Mr. Tesla at his word and commission him to go ahead with his "teleforce" plant.
In ordinary times such a condition would very likely interpose an insuperable obstacle. But times being what they are, and with the nation getting ready to spend billions on national defense, at the same time taking in consideration the reputation of Mr. Tesla as an inventor who always was many years ahead of his time, the question arises whether it may not be advisable to take Mr. Tesla at his word and commission him to go ahead with his "teleforce" plant.



Such a Device "Invaluable"


After all $2,000,000 would be relatively a very small sum compared with what is at stake. If Mr. Tesla really fulfills his promise the results achieved would be truly staggering. Now only would it save billions now planned for air defense, by making the country absolutely impregnable against any air attack, but it also would save many more billions in property that would otherwise be surely destroyed no matter how strong the defenses are as witness current events in England.

Take, for example, the Panama Canal. No matter how strong the defense, a suicide squadron of dive bombers, according to some experts, might succeed in getting through and cause such damage that would make the Canal unusable, in which our Navy might find it self bottled up.

Considering the probabilities in the case even if the chances were a 100,000 to 1 against Mr. Tesla the odds would still be largely in favor of taking a chance of spending $2000,000. In the opinion of the writer, who has known Mr. Tesla for many years and can testify he still retains full intellectual vigor, the authorities in charge of building national defense should at once look into the matter. The sum is insignificant compared to the magnitude of the stake.

[John Feeney]

Ah, okay, the whole sentence was, "I know they help the few hundred people who, have bought them, and have the intelligence and aptitude to understand and apply concepts they convey." So, from your reply I gather you're saying only a few hundred have the intelligence and aptitude to understand and apply the concepts. Sorry, your meaning wasn't clear to me when I first read it. My mistake What you're actually saying is much more reasonable, though I'd bet you're still underestimating the numbers by a good bit.

BTW, what works in verbal communication can be really tedious in written discussion. Let me respectfully request that next time you just spell out what you're thinking rather than replying with a question ('Did you read only the part you quoted?') to which the other poster may only respond with an answer ('No.'), to which you then need to reply with a follow up to explain what you have in mind... No need to dance around like that, unless you really like that sort of thing. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif (I avoided such a dance here, but they do happen all too often on the Net.) Just a thought.

[Jimbo]

OK John I know you are sensitive and but at the risk of offending you I will not "dance around". I suspect less than 1% of the people who read Gabe's post misunderstood his meaning. It probably seemed more likely to him you intentionally took his statement out of context, at least it seemed that way to me.

[John Feeney]

I didn't 'deliberately take it out of context.' I don't do that sort of thing. At least I try not to. (I just didn't get his meaning the first time through. Probably read too fast.) But even if I had, what would that have to do with the price of tea in China? Do you not see the value of saying what you mean in either case?

Also, why would he think I did that? Why on earth would I want to prove him wrong about something so much that I'd manipulate his words to do so? I don't even think I' ve ever had a prior interaction with Gabe.

[Jimbo]

OK john, I have changed my mind, I would like to understand the meaning of your book. If I purchase it are you willing to discuss any reasonable questions I may have either in person or through other verbal communication?

[John Cole]

Jimbo,

I didn't misread it, but after exchanging posts with John Feeney for a few years now and reading his responses to his critics, I'm confident that John would not intentionally misread or take a statement out of context to make a point.

Now, let's address your "at least it seemed that way to me."
A rational reader could take that as either a reference to the beginning of your sentence, meaning that you think that Gabe took what John said one way, or it could also be an additional comment that you've added, meaning that you think John took the statement out of context. See how confusing all this can get, especially if the reader gives a post a quick scan.

John

[John Feeney]

...I think. Do you mean only on the phone or in person? As long as I have the time, I'd probably be willing up to a point. OTOH, I'm certainly willing to discuss it all you want here.

[Jimbo]

John, if it is intentionally confusing then does that make it more or less acceptable? Now I'm not saying that I was intending a double entendre but if I was or wasn't whether I intended to or not would that make a difference in the meaning which I may or may not have meant, depending on wheter the person who read the statment understood or whether it was clear to him but perhaps not another reader?


Any questions?

[Jimbo]

Sorry I wasn't clear John, I meant whenever and whichever is more convenient for you.

[BruceZ]

The Margaret Cheney book discusses this in several places. Tesla explicitly stated that his proposal was not a death ray since rays dissipate too much power, but instead a beam of charged particles capable of conveying several thousand horsepower, trillions of times more energy than would be possible by rays of any kind, and transmitted by a stream thinner than a hair. He pitched the idea to Westinghouse, but their research specialist was very skeptical. He also pitched the idea to England and to Russia. An expert has stated that "he may not have paid sufficient attention to how much such beams may be absorbed or dispersed by molecules or atoms in the air". He did some experimentation on a limited scale, and his work anticipated modern particle accelerators which are capable of producing 1000 times more energy than anything Tesla was known to have produced. After he died, his papers and writings about a particle beam were considered extremely important by our government, and work on such beams has proceeded under almost complete secrecy.

[John Cole]

Jimbo,

It's all so confusing, like the sign that reads, "Seeing eye dogs only on elevators."

I think I'll go get my balls drilled.

John

[BruceZ]

I suspect less than 1% of the people who read Gabe's post

I think more people than that read Gabe's post.

[BruceZ]

I surfed the web to find out what this meant. It looks difficult. More difficult than tenpin bowling. I understand that Babe Ruth liked to play it. Apparently there are no sources of new bowling alley equipment for that game anymore. Did you grow up in Maryland? How heavy are those balls? Are the lanes oiled? At first I was thinking about that game they play in Europe with the quail feather.

Many people make fun of bowling, even though it was the number 1 participation sport a few years ago and may still be. One person remarked that he thought the game was "1-dimensional". I can assure you that all 3 dimensions come fully into play, although it's true that the width dimension is compressed into a relatively narrow strip. There are even more than 3 dimensions when one considers rev rate, ball speed, and surface friction. The angular velocity vector is a vector in 3 dimensions, though one often tries to minimize the vertical component. Bowling is actually a thinking man's game. That will get a lot of laughs because it is often played by non-thinking men. Once your skill gets to a certain level, the game becomes one of getting your mind to let your body do what it is trained to do, and figuring out what line to use, which piece of equipment to use, how much speed to use, and what hand position to use to play the ever-changing oil pattern.

[John Cole]

Bruce,

No, I grew up in Rhode Island, but I know Maryland was one of the few states that also had duckpin bowling. Whether it's more difficult than ten pin is relative, but it's much harder to achieve high scores. For example, a 400 series is considered a standard of excellence. (The worst choke of all time: one guy rolled 99 in his final string for any otherworldly total of 599.) An average of 120 or higher was always considered quite good, especially with older alleys and wooden pins. Back about 40 years ago, the best in the country might have averaged 130 or so. The best technique involved throwing the ball at a slight angle to the head pin in a straight line as hard as possible. You'd get a kick out of watching a duckpin bowler try ten pin because they use the same method.

I forget how much the balls weighed, but there was a range, and I guess about four pounds or so was standard. What makes it difficult is that if you're off by a fraction, say if you hit the 1 pin head on, the result is a chop. Alleys were oiled, and some alleys had better action than others.

I never inherited the rest of the family's talent. My father and his four brothers all bowled on one team, and except for my father, they all averaged 120 or over. He averaged about 118, but he always bowled fifth man because he never choked.

BTW, at one time the world record for duckpin, in the 260 range, was held by a woman from Warwick, RI, who averaged about 115. I once saw another woman who held about a 105 average roll seven consecutive strikes for a 240 or so total. Strange game.

John

[Glenn]

Hi Bruce,

I haven't read that book but I may pick it up now. I already have his autobiography on my list for my next amazon order. I have been pretty dumb lately so I am trying to reintroduce academic study to my poker playing existence in which I am forced to surround myself with the dumbest group of people I can find /forums/images/icons/smile.gif. Tesla will be a good break from "Options, Futures, and other Derivatives".

[Schmed]

just bought it and I am through about 1/4th of it just want to say I like it alot......I really like anyting that makes me think about my game and brings up new ideas. I'm certain that it will be in the reread pile.......... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif I like the different slant and it's an easy read.....

(the appropriate response is "oh" as far as I am concerned) /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[Easy E]

What we need is an Instant Messenger feature on 2+2, where two people can hash it out, then the software captures the main highlights and automatically posts the info into the thread involved....

Have fun with THAT one, somebody!

[Rick Nebiolo]

[Phat Mack]

The last time is saw a duck pin lane was in 1961 in New London, Conn. They had automatic pin spotters, which surprises me now, but didn't seem remarkable at the time.

They still have 9-pin lanes is small Texas communities. They use full-size pins that are spotted in a diamond shape. The center pin is painted red on top. There are three rolls to a frame, and a point is awarded for each pin knocked down, but to get a "strike" you must knock down eight pins and leave the red (center) pin standing.

Competition is usually between teams of specialists. The captain will roill the first ball, and then select members of the team to roll succeeding balls depending on the configurations of the remaining pins.

Ability to drink vast quantities of beer and remain on one's feet is a very neccessary attribute of the winning nine-pin bowler. They use high school kids to operate the hand-spotting machines. Their job becomes more and more perilous as the beer supply diminishes. Great fun!

[asdtexas]

I am the original poster and would like to officially end the discussion so that David keeps his job. By they way, I did meet Mason and he was congenial. Therefore, I'm still buying the books and remain a fan of the forum.

I will be sure to post the next time I meet David since this seems to entertaining for everyone. If he asks me for autograph, I will tell him to get lost.

[BruceZ]

The one I have is called Tesla, Man out of Time. I see amazon also has another one co-written by Cheney called Teslsa Master of Lightening. I haven't read that one. They are offering the two books together for 21 bucks, or you can get either book with a collection of inventions for 20, or two different collections of inventions for 20. This is similar to the deal I got from Barnes and Noble years ago, except both of my books are hardcover, and the book of inventions appears to be different from either of these.

[Rainbow Warrior]

Hi Tommy....you got a minute? heheh

Re 2) your display - you must be on flat mode. It means less clicking but it's hard to follow the related threads.
Edit your personal pref defaults to:
Descending date
Threaded mode
Collapsed threads

back-click after reading each post other than the original

[Rainbow Warrior]

[John Feeney]

[matt_d]

BruceZ, you appear to have discovered a whole "Theory of Jerks" - hilarious and also very useful!

As for the criticisms in the thread - seems to be a case of "everyone ought to act like me" syndrome. So someone doesn't act the same way you would have - big deal, get over it. People don't come to a poker bbs to listen to sermons and moralising.

[Broyle Dunson]

Dont know him personally but I see da man on a daily basis bouncing between the ponies and the high limit poker.One day I had one the latest copie of advanced holdem in the car and approached him as he was leaving the casino,introduced myself and asked him to sign the book.He said sure waited for about 5/10 minutes while I went to my car and brought it back and he signed it with a little note to me.Thanks again David