JJ heads up [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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hemstock

08-17-2005, 05:39 PM

CO was quite loose but very aggressive preflop and aggressive postflop.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.25 BB

Results in white below: 
No showdown. CO wins 4.25 BB. 

My first thought is that I played it very weak. But the more I look at it the more I like my fold.
Couple of reasons I mucked this.
If he is gonna reraise me, he has to have some kind of a hand.
In the case that he has an A i'm already drawing to just 2 outs.
In the other most likely case that he has at least one spade, he has a ton of outs against me in what it's going to be a small pot. I don't wanna get involved in this situation. Thoughts?

Hand #2

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
6 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Villain here is a very TAGy. I think my only mistake here, is the 3bet on the flop. I should have just called and fold the turn UI.

SoftcoreRevolt

08-17-2005, 05:54 PM

If he is Laggy Preflop, you need to cap preflop in hand 1.

deception5

08-17-2005, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he has a ton of outs against me in what it's going to be a small pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Small clarification, this is a pretty large pot heads up.

hemstock

08-17-2005, 06:00 PM

Someone else told me the other day that capping with JJ preflop heads up is not a good idea.

VoraciousReader

08-17-2005, 06:06 PM

Hand 1:
If we put the likely 3-betting hands at TT-AA plus AK and AQ, you are now behind to...all of them. Plus, even if he 3-bet something obscure, as you say, all it takes is a lone spade and he has a nearly even chance of beating you anyway. Great fold.

Hand 2:
[ QUOTE ]
Villain here is a very TAGy. I think my only mistake here, is the 3bet on the flop. I should have just called and fold the turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

If opponent is good enough, HU I might bet this ace or a diamond, but mostly, I agree, this turn is a check/fold.

deception5

08-17-2005, 06:09 PM

How do we derive:

[ QUOTE ]
If we put the likely 3-betting hands at TT-AA plus AK and AQ, you are now behind to...all of them

[/ QUOTE ]

from this:

[ QUOTE ]
CO was quite loose but very aggressive preflop and aggressive postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

deception5

08-17-2005, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Someone else told me the other day that capping with JJ preflop heads up is not a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so opponent and situation dependent that it would be impossible to make such a blanket statement.

hemstock

08-17-2005, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How do we derive:

[ QUOTE ]
If we put the likely 3-betting hands at TT-AA plus AK and AQ, you are now behind to...all of them

[/ QUOTE ]

from this:

[ QUOTE ]
CO was quite loose but very aggressive preflop and aggressive postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but he did not raise first in. He reraised me. Doesn't that make a difference?

VoraciousReader

08-17-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How do we derive:
[ QUOTE ]
If we put the likely 3-betting hands at TT-AA plus AK and AQ, you are now behind to...all of them

[/ QUOTE ]
from this:
[ QUOTE ]
CO was quite loose but very aggressive preflop and aggressive postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I will read the top line. I will read the top line. I will read the top line. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Okay, so expand 3-bet hands to, let's say, 88-AA AK-A10, KQ, KJ, K10 and QJ? In that case, I think I may call to see the turn and fold to a 4th spade or another overcard. (Edit: With JJ in my hand, I think I still fold this....aw heck. I remember why I hate playing JJ.)

Too wide a range for villain? Not wide enough?

deception5

08-17-2005, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes but he did not raise first in. He reraised me. Doesn't that make a difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

It may, but keep in mind, depending on how loose your opponent is, hands that you think are trash will look like powerhouse hands to a loose aggressive player who is used to coming in with 86o. He may think KT is good enough to 3-bet preflop. Any pair may be good enough. JT is probably not out of the question. And sometimes it could be 72o because hey it's not all about the cards anyway /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm not saying the fold is terrible as there's a fair chance you are behind or will be and you are unlikely to improve. I'm just saying you can't put a tag 3-betting standard on a lag.

deception5

08-17-2005, 06:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so expand 3-bet hands to, let's say, 88-AA AK-A10, KQ, KJ, K10 and QJ? In that case, I think I want to call a flop bet, and fold the turn if the 4th spade falls or another overcard to my JJ. Otherwise I call down.

Too wide a range for villain? Not wide enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems reasonable. Could be wider or not as wide but on average this is probably close enough. If he's a maniac I'd call down every time but if we just know he's loose and slightly aggressive, it may be worth letting go and waiting for a spot when our edge is clearer.

08-17-2005, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Someone else told me the other day that capping with JJ preflop heads up is not a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends. Is the guy capable of iso-raising you with a weaker hand? Against an unknown, I will cap this HU to try and take the initiative.

aces_dad

08-17-2005, 07:06 PM

Why did you three bet the flop in the second hand?