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View Full Version : An annoying STT tactic


fnord_too
08-17-2005, 04:11 PM
Ok, here's a tactic that is annoying to me (thus I use it myself on other players /images/graemlins/wink.gif ):

I raise with something like AQ, get called from someone in position. I miss the flop, fire a continuation bet and get called. I miss the turn, check and fold to a bet.

I know a lot of times I am getting taken off my hand by air or a hand that can't stand another lead, but I don't know which specific times those are (obviously). This tactic seems to be a favorite on PP since I have seen it a lot in the ring NL games, too (far less than I see it on other sites, but that may just be a sample size thing, since it really is a good tactic to counter relentless continuation betting). There, I counter it several ways, but one of them, firing a second round, just is not always feasible in an S&G because of stack sizes.

Where this tactic is most annoying is in the middle rounds where you still have to play post flop but a second barrel comits too many chips. The other ways of combatting this are not as effective, either, since you don't see a lot of the players enough for them to realize you use them.

One way is to lead you good to great hands on the flop and either check raise the turn or check call the turn and lead the river. (In a ring game doing something like check raising the turn tends to stick in peoples minds, and you see more hands against individual opponents so you actually can build up a history with them to exploit.)

Another way is to check the flop and mix up raising/calling/and folding when you miss. Check calling tends to scare the hell out of people in the middle rounds. Often I will check call, have the turn go check check and lead the river. Occasionally I have to bail on the plan if the board gets scary, but this line seems pretty effective and gets a lot of folds.

There are some other lines I occasionally use, but the reason this tactic is so frustrating is that most of the time the flops miss you, and playing lines in the middle rounds with weak at best hands can be costly. You just don't have enough time with most people to 1. know they are capable of this tactic and 2. exploit it with good hands to condition them to not want to play post flop against you.

This is a great line to use against people who will aggressively continue on the flop but give up resonably often there after.

So what are you least favorite lines to face and how do you deal with them? Do you deal with this line any differently? Are you one of those bastards that does this to me? Let's get some good general post flop discussion going that is geared to the short (but not tiny) stack play that is the middle game of STTs.

A_PLUS
08-17-2005, 04:17 PM
Good post.

In low-mid NL ring, this is one of the easiest things to exploit in bad players, b/c firing the 2nd shot makes them instantly turn the (AK / AA or KK) switch in their minds. It is very tough to combat in SNGs, unless you are playing the same players constantly (then you could find an optimum ratio of bet/check).

45suited
08-17-2005, 04:27 PM
Good post. Unfortunately the stack sizes are such that raising / C betting in level 4 or so becomes very touchy.

If I have a stack of 1000-1100, my tactic is to be very patient and only raise with very good hands. Say it's level 4, 7 handed and I pick up AQ UTG+1. I have t1100. If I'm playing that hand, I'm pushing it pre-flop and overcoming any positional considerations.

The problem that you bring up is a very good point, I tend to go a little bit past the 10 BB guideline in spots like this in order to simplify things and not bleed chips.

I don't think that my approach means that I suck post-flop, merely that the murky area of being at 10-12 BBs in level 4 calls for some adjustments. Again, I think that PVS gave GREAT advice in this regard in his post about level 4 play. Sometimes I'll pass on a hand that others might play, simply because I want to avoid the situation that you are describing.

Newt_Buggs
08-17-2005, 04:37 PM
I overcame a lot of the problems with the above situation once I learned to stop betting ace high all the time.

fnord_too
08-17-2005, 04:42 PM
I'm talking about where the relevant stacks are still 15-25BB. You raise to say 3BB, get a call, pot is 7.5BB. You fire say a 4-5 BB continuation and get called. Now the pot is 16ish BB and you are out room to manoever and not commit yourself (or at least really hurt yourself).

Also anoying is when you have more, but that second barrel is going to result in more than 1/3 of your stack being gone if villain does not go away. If I can fire the second barrel and still have 70% of my original stack, I am not sweating betting out again if I know villain is capable of calling the flop with air or a draw but giving up if I fire again on the turn. (In a ring game I pick these people out and test them or otherwise try to exploit the tactic.)

Once it gets to the point where just a continuation bet is going to be painful, that is like 12-15BB stacks so I am not quite in push or fold mode, I am more cautious with my continuation bets (though they also are more effective here due to the fact that they effectively threaten the other guys stack, or at least threaten to play for your whole stack if the other guy is a much bigger stack).

I think rounds 2 and 3, and 4 if several people have been eliminated, are where post flop play is most critical. Round 1 (and 2 to some extent) a lot of the post flop play is trying to pick up unwanted pots cheaply or tyring to get all your chips in when you hit a big hand. Neither of those scenarios is particularly dangerous to your stack, so while you can pick up a lot of chips early, the play is not nearly as critical.

pooh74
08-17-2005, 04:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I overcame a lot of the problems with the above situation once I learned to stop betting ace high all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or an amatuerish/heehaw mistake I used to make would be on my contiuation bets, say with an AK that misses. HU, Villain would fire back a minraise and I would often call...not to setup a play, but for lack better idea. Now I am either calling with intent to take it back later...or, for the most part, folding if the flop is bad for me.

fnord_too
08-17-2005, 04:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I overcame a lot of the problems with the above situation once I learned to stop betting ace high all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't always make contiuation bets when I miss (or hit for that matter). I don't know my exact ratio but 50-50, 60-40 when I miss and 80-20, 90-10 when I hit sounds close. If you are not making continuation bets relatively often, though, I think you are leaving a lot of money on the table. The fact of the matter is most flops miss people and if your opponent is facing a bet on the flop from someone who raised pre flop when he has missed his hand, or is looking at 2-3 overs to his pocket pair, calling is not easy.

Even if you are continuing 50% with misses (which I think is pretty low) and 90% with hits, I'd have to crunch the numbers but I think you are still going to be leading with less than top pair most of the time.

Ixnert
08-17-2005, 05:08 PM
A situation I've been finding annoying lately re: continuation bets is that at the 20s and 30s lately, well over half the time the answer to my (level 1 or 2) C-bet is a push (which is usually a massive overbet) if there's not an A or K on board. I almost never saw this before a few weeks ago.

Anyone else been running into this with any regularity? My opponents can't possibly have hit the flop as often as I'm seeing this, so the only thing I can figure to do is just C-bet less often, since I can't see going to the felt with ace-high in level 1. And you don't play often enough with any one opponent to convince them that you might play your monsters like that too.

Maulik
08-17-2005, 06:03 PM
I overcame a lot of the problems with the above situation once I learned to stop betting ace high all the time.

in lvl4 w/ 12-15bb stack? for a hand like AQo in EP are you limping, raising or pushing? I'm in favour with pushing as a poster mentioned to negate any positional advantages. But this is because I'm not competent in my post-flop play, yet.

Big Limpin'
08-17-2005, 06:08 PM
I am often that "annoying" villain. You run out of gas...i inherit the pot (upon a checked turn). You fire 2nd barrel, i now only call you if i stack up well.

I agree with you that 25/50 --> 100/200 levels of SnGs get awkward to play OOP strongly, b/c the pf and flop bets have built a t300-t700 pot whereby whomever makes the first meaningful turn bet has committed himself.

Is there a obvious solution to this? I dont think so. Perhaps the best you can do is tailor your bet sizes to control/distort pot sizes leading into this situation.

Perhaps the most usuful part of this post (and the whole thing was good) is simply the acknowledgement that you, me, and most others keep puting ourselves in this spot. And from there, the deduction that if that spot sucks for the aggressor, then it must not be so bad for the caller.

Bluff calls = Firewalking
Firewalking = Possible disaster, but fun times
ergo...

Its a strong play, but one where you will lose bits of your stack most times, and all of it once in a while. But overall, i think if you have some semblance of postflop play, you can pay for this and more with the pots you pick up.

Preconditions:

-you have average/above average stack
-you are IN POSITION with respect to the original agressor
-you wont get check/called allin by 2 overs that beat you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

as for any play, the EV can only increase if you have more outs. Bluff-calling with rags probably isnt too EV, might be negEV even, but even a gutshot will swing the odds more in your favor. Extrapolate this up the ranks to OESD, 4flush, TP/gutshot, etc...

BL' - Still on hiatus, but 14 days w/o 2+2 made me "too weak" (rimshot) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

08-17-2005, 06:08 PM
I often like check raising the turn with a monster if this situation you talk about has come up previously.

fnord_too
08-17-2005, 08:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]

BL' - Still on hiatus, but 14 days w/o 2+2 made me "too weak" (rimshot) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That hurts more than the described tactic...