JJ - totally lost - 100NL

[unlucky513]

no reads, villains 2nd hand.

i'm really confused w/ this limp/reraise/lead the flop line. in your experiences, what hands are these most of the time?

what is your line for the hand?? give thoughts.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($115.25)
Hero ($86.75)
UTG ($94.60)
MP ($122.65)
Button ($66.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $18</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $13.

Flop: ($37) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG best $12...

raise? call? what does he have? i'm so lost
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[yvesaint]

limp re-raise, especially that large of a re-raise, is almost always AA-QQ, maybe AK if the guy is a complete idiot (but this is 6-max). also, aren't you OOP? I think I just might fold this pre-flop, I assume you checked the flop and then he bet?

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]
no reads, villains 2nd hand.

i'm really confused w/ this limp/reraise/lead the flop line. in your experiences, what hands are these most of the time?

what is your line for the hand?? give thoughts.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($115.25)
Hero ($86.75)
UTG ($94.60)
MP ($122.65)
Button ($66.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $18</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $13.

Flop: ($37) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG best $12...

raise? call? what does he have? i'm so lost
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Call, check behind on the turn if given the option. If he bets the turn strongly I'd probably fold.

EDIT: just saw you were the BB. Then I'd probably check/fold.

His line is the textbook way that SS says to play AA or KK. I think you are way behind here. I might have folded pre-flop, but I don't hate the call. If you spike a J you can stack him. I would fold to the flop bet.

[xorbie]

Resist the temptation to call down. You are only 75% against AK. 8% against whatever else he's got.

Ouch. Hmmm, to tell you the truth, I might just fold this hand. Without a read on the opponent, or any solid stats, you can put him on a variety of hands. He played preflop like he had high pocket pair, but his 1/3 size flop bet was suspicious. Add in the fact that you are OOP...I would probably just (reluctantly) toss this hand and wait for a better spot.

--solids

[swolfe]

generally this is a fold. he has AA/KK most of the time unless he's trick. in which case he could have anything...PP or suited conn...AK...

his weak flop bet is a little odd. i think i'd call and see what happens on the turn.

[unlucky513]

flubbed this one up pretty bad...


Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $18</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $13.

Flop: ($37) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $37</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $76.6</font>, Hero calls $31.75 (All-In).

Turn: ($182.35) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($182.35) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $182.35

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Js Jc (two pair, jacks and twos).
UTG has Qc Qh (two pair, queens and twos).
Outcome: UTG wins $182.34. </font>

i'm suprised to see its AA/KK/QQ here most times... i have 10k hands at .5/1 and this is the first time this has happened. bah

[ScottTheFish]

I agree with the others that this is almost always a pocket pair higher than Jacks.

I don't hate the call preflop...I'd like it more if you had a full stack. Once you're Limp/RR'd, You're trying to hit a set and double up at that point IMO.

The flop bet is so small I'd probably call and see what he does on the turn, that will be the last money I put into the pot unless I spike a J.

You don't want to play a huge pot with 1 pair vs. an unknown, and especially not when he's screaming he has a higher pair.

Edit: Yuck, you definitely have to fold to that reraise on the flop. See the pargraph above.

Edit again: Well actually I guess you had to call $31 more with the amount that was in the pot, you were basically screwed as soon as you raised the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

i'm suprised to see its AA/KK/QQ here most times... i have 10k hands at .5/1 and this is the first time this has happened. bah

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not. This move is pretty typical in ssnl, especially from donks. It's a horrible play to make with high pocket pair, but it happens often.

[ScottTheFish]

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[ QUOTE ]

i'm suprised to see its AA/KK/QQ here most times... i have 10k hands at .5/1 and this is the first time this has happened. bah

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not. This move is pretty typical in ssnl, especially from donks. It's a horrible play to make with high pocket pair, but it happens often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it a horrible move? On some tables it's horrible, on some tables it's great. There's not only one way to play a hand. I do agree it's almost always a bad move 5 handed unless there is some LAG raising every hand.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a horrible play to make with high pocket pair

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it's not.

[Tuben]

I dotn play 6 mx or 100. But i would play it in 3 ways.

Call his re reaise pre flop to flop a set if he has enough money so it is worth it. Or i would fold pre flop.
And if i dont flop a set i would have to play it after the flop then this is a great flop and easy call.

But you are fuckt i think if you dont hit your J.

[unlucky513]

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[ QUOTE ]
It's a horrible play to make with high pocket pair

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you like losing money, its a brilliant play.

[Mackerel]

Without a read and with so few players in, you should expect to see AA or KK here most of the time. Of course, this guy could turn out to be a tricky LAG, but without knowing that I fold. Also, if there had been 4 or 5 limpers stuck in there, then it becomes more likely that he's making a play for the dead money. Here I let this go now.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
if you like losing money, its a brilliant play.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's your PTBB/hand with AA?

[unlucky513]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you like losing money, its a brilliant play.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's your PTBB/hand with AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

2.15/BB100 ...10k hands, 58 times.
is that bad/good?

why are you asking?

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a horrible play to make with high pocket pair

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you like losing money, its a brilliant play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah, some of you guys are so boring...It can be a good play, trust me. The trick is not to go broke with it when you don't get raised and you see a flop with 3 or 4 limpers.

but like I said, 5 handed when you just sat down is probably not the ideal time for it.

Haha I had a feeling I was going to get criticism for that comment. Here is why I think it's horrible.

First, I think it completely gives your hand away. A limp/reraise reeks of high pocket pair. This play often completely ruins your action on the flop (ironically, except in the case of this post...). I have seen several limp/reraises not make it past the flop. I think that a raise UTG is a much better play, especially if you are a somewhat aggressive player. There are a variety of hands you could raise with UTG in a 5-handed game, from suited connectors to AA. It's harder for your opponent to put you on a hand.

Your comment about at some tables, this is a great move. I guess I agree with that statement. Against a very LAGgish table, I see this move working. But in most cases, I would prefer to play it a little differently and mask my hand better.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what's your PTBB/hand with AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

2.15/BB100 ...10k hands, 58 times.
is that bad/good?

why are you asking?

[/ QUOTE ]

seems low actually, but it's a pretty small sample size.

anyway, say you limp and MP opens for 4BB (2PTBB), everyone folds, including the blinds (.75PTBB), you reraise to whatever and MP folds. you've made 2.75 PTBB. higher than your average and low risk. what if MP had been called in two places? then you'd have won 6.75 PTBB.

you're giving out some info (that you have AA), but when you do that, the pot is big enough that it's okay. deception loses value when the pot is big and you should generally try to take it down right then.

you're not losing money...perhaps you could have made more money another way, but it's lower risk than raising and being dog piled by 6 people with pocket pairs and suited connectors...

and occassionally you get action from someone with JJ that doesn't believe you.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
but it's lower risk than raising and being dog piled by 6 people with pocket pairs and suited connectors...


[/ QUOTE ]

Complete hijack here, but this made me laugh like a maniac. Luckily Im the only one in the office at the moment.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Complete hijack here, but this made me laugh like a maniac. Luckily Im the only one in the office at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously, there are times when i raise from EP and i'm singing in my head "dog pile on the wabbit! dog pile on the wabbit!"

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]

First, I think it completely gives your hand away. A limp/reraise reeks of high pocket pair. This play often completely ruins your action on the flop (ironically, except in the case of this post...). I have seen several limp/reraises not make it past the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine with me if it doesn't make it past the flop. That's why I got extra money in preflop, when I was guaranteed to have the best hand. I don't feel it's my God given right to double up every time I have AA. It's just a pair. If I get 3 limps + a raise then a call of my reraise and the guy folds the flop, that is a perfectly fine result, no?

If it doesn't go past the flop, it probably wasn't going to anyway. They either hit top pair or better or they don't. AK that hits his K on the flop is not folding just because I scared him with my Limp/RR. These people cannot get away from a decent hand.

Point taken.