Flopped an Ace, with Ah6h

[Felipe]

Down at niagara casino playing 2/4 against some serious fish, and one Oriental lag (he wasn't a good one, thank goodness. Somebody said afterwards he'd dropped $500) There is two limpers to me in mid. I call with Ah6h. BB checks.

Flop:

A Q little

BB bets, limper folds, limper raises. I fold. I hate weak kickers. I can't seem to muster the courage to re raise and get BB to fold and heads up with MP, not to mention in position too.

And the turn was an Ace. I knew I'd folded the best hand.

Anybody have suggestions to deal with weak kickers? Would raising be best, to see how much MP likes her Ace and or kicker? or is calling good, to peel the turn and see what comes?

Thanks!

[SeaEagle]

You don't give a read on MP, and I'd need that to make a decision here.

Also, suits matter. Did you have a backdoor draw? Could someone else be on a flush draw?

[Felipe]

right ok

MP is into many pots, in or out of position. (i don't think *she* understands position) (I REALLY don't think she does) She isn't very aggressive, but she's quite a caller. With her flop raise, i'd put her on an AT, AJ that she hadn't raise preflop.

About suits, the board was rainbow, /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[sean c]

What are the suits and where was the lag? Was he the bettor or the raiser in this hand or not involved?

[SeaEagle]

So you have a drawless flop and a passive player who thinks her hand is worth a raise.

I'd be folding here.

[peterchi]

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and one Oriental lag (he wasn't a good one, thank goodness).

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haha. I love that there is the need for this qualification. Absolutely love it /images/graemlins/grin.gif



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Anybody have suggestions to deal with weak kickers? Would raising be best, to see how much MP likes her Ace and or kicker? or is calling good, to peel the turn and see what comes?


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I'm generally not calling two cold nor 3-betting with no kicker, without a read. I think your flop fold is generally ok.

With two limpers I think you can raise this pre-flop (it'd be better from later position obviously, but middle isn't so bad either). Might make it easier to play post-flop.

[callmedonnie]

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Anybody have suggestions to deal with weak kickers?

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In mid position, I think the best way to deal with this is fold. I understand limping w/ suited Aces at terribly loose and great tables such as this, but I still try and play within the proper range.

[sean c]

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Anybody have suggestions to deal with weak kickers?

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In mid position, I think the best way to deal with this is fold. I understand limping w/ suited Aces at terribly loose and great tables such as this, but I still try and play within the proper range.

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This is generally an easy call in terrible low limit live games where it is not uncommon to see 8 or 9 to an unraised flop.

[callmedonnie]

Yea, I guess. From my experience it is borderline. I usually try to wait until somewhat later position.

[peterchi]

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Yea, I guess. From my experience it is borderline. I usually try to wait until somewhat later position.

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In any typical live 2/4 game -- you can limp with Axs from any position.

In most party 2/4 games -- you can limp with Axs from any position.

I feel that it doesn't get questionable until 3/6.

[SackUp]

raise preflop

easy fold on flop. move on to a better situation. you have a small pot and a crappy kicker. no reason to stick around.

[brettbrettr]

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raise preflop

easy fold on flop. move on to a better situation. you have a small pot and a crappy kicker. no reason to stick around.

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I disagree with the pre-flop raise and I agree with the flop fold. Felipe, don't be results oriented.

[Felipe]

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raise preflop

easy fold on flop. move on to a better situation. you have a small pot and a crappy kicker. no reason to stick around.



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is this raise preflop AND** fold flop? That seems counter productve to raise, and then fold to an Ace on the flop with a bet and raise in front. Why raise then? To fatten a pot you're going to fold to? or get a free turn card? I agree with folding the flop in a small pot. I want to know how often am I ahead in a situation like this.

And I am being results oriented a little. Its a hard habit to break. These weak kickers (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=3166347 &fpart=1&PHPSESSID=) are giving me a hard time. I think I'm folding the best hand most of the time.

I think against these weak players, Axs from mid position is still pretty tight (relative to *their* standards). Tight enough at least, to see a cheap flop against many bad players. In games with 4% preflop raises, and +45% (maybe lower) to see the flop, I'm calling with Axs from all positions.

Back to the hand: If I want to continue, lets say, would I raise it to drop out the BB and maybe get a free river? or call?
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OH! and the oriental lag wasn't in the hand. He had learned I played tight when I showed down strong hand, one after another. Even when I limped, he folded. On second thought maybe he wasn't TOO loose, maybe only slightly, but he didn't enjoy seeing many flops. Till I got there. but enough of him!

[brettbrettr]

I dont' agree with a pre-flop raise. You only quited half of what I said. I do agree with the flop fold

That said, there are lots of occasions when you should raise pre-flop and fold the flop.

[peterchi]

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raise preflop

easy fold on flop. move on to a better situation. you have a small pot and a crappy kicker. no reason to stick around.



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is this raise preflop AND** fold flop? That seems counter productve to raise, and then fold to an Ace on the flop with a bet and raise in front. Why raise then? To fatten a pot you're going to fold to? or get a free turn card? I agree with folding the flop in a small pot. I want to know how often am I ahead in a situation like this.


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The raise pre-flop is questionable, I know. I guess it's not my standard move from MP. But I'll do it from time to time.

But yes, suppose you raised pre-flop here. Then the flop comes with an A, and there's a bet and a raise in front of you. They're telling you that even though you've announced that you have a strong hand pre-flop, they like their hands too. So you can fold.

The purpose of a raise isn't to pad the pot for your weak pair of aces. The purpose is to pad the pot for your flush draw. It also assumes that you can correctly fold a pair of aces, when necessary. Like, right now.

Not sure why you would fold your hand. You said yourself most, if not all, the players we're fish. Indeed your kicker was weak, but I would guess raising the BB would allow you to know where you stand. And then, when the turn hits, you're as good as gold. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[peterchi]

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Not sure why you would fold your hand. You said yourself most, if not all, the players we're fish. Indeed your kicker was weak, but I would guess raising the BB would allow you to know where you stand. And then, when the turn hits, you're as good as gold. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

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I'm so confused...

On another note, I've started to notice today, not just in this thread, that my posts in a thread has tended to end that train of thought. I don't intend my posts to say anything like "this is the way it is." Not even close. And with this thread in particular, I really felt like I've been throwing myself out there to be disagreed with.

So please argue with me /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I still need to learn too.

[SackUp]

I agree, I do not always raise this preflop in this situation. And actually looking back at the hand I would have probably just called in this situation.

I still think the fold is easy though.

[JDErickson]

Limping Axs in any position in loose passive game is good. I don't raise though in the same game.

I fold this flop with the reads you have. If only 1 bet to me I"m raising this almost every time.

[Felipe]

Brettbrettr - i wasn't quoting you, I was quoting your quote from sackup. sorry for the mixup. I agree, there are many times when I'd raise it up preflop or even cap it, and fold on the flop. But in this scenario, I'm limping with this *more often* than raising it. I'd raise it if my raises have been getting a lot of respect lately, or Im' on a rush, or I can resonably steal the blinds. But after 2 limpers, i'd call to encourage action behind me (action meaning calls, not raises)

Thanks for the input and good discussion. Well, at least I got what I wanted, and can lay this story to rest. I think ppl agree I made a sound fold here.

After my fold, BB checked, flop raiser bet, all fold. I hate results oriented thinking. She showed Jh5c, and stole the pot.


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hold the phone! I've gotta drive home. I'll be back to say more. I'll leave you to digest this.


to be continued............

[callmedonnie]

I disagree. I think playing any suited ace is going get you sucked in to too many pots when you limp and someone raise. I think it is a leak if you do constantly.

[peterchi]

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I disagree. I think playing any suited ace is going get you sucked in to too many pots when you limp and someone raise. I think it is a leak if you do constantly.

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haha, sweet. Although, you'd be better off arguing against my suggestion of a pre-flop raise /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Most 2/4 games, both live and online, aren't aggressive enough to worry about getting raised after you limp. Even if there is a raise, this is generally offset by the fact that there's likely to be enough callers anyways. If you are constantly getting isolated when you limp, then you can find much more profitable 2/4 games, and a ton of them too.

If Axs isn't enough of a drawing hand for your liking against a large field, then what is?

I can check my PT database for you when I get home from work if you'd like. If the suited aces are losers then I will eat my hat and your eye-patch.

[sean c]

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I disagree. I think playing any suited ace is going get you sucked in to too many pots when you limp and someone raise. I think it is a leak if you do constantly.

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Donnie it really depends on the table but if five or six bad players are seeing every flop usually unraised then folding Axs from anywhere is bad IMO. This type of game is alot more common live than online.

[SeaEagle]

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MP is into many pots, in or out of position. (i don't think *she* understands position) (I REALLY don't think she does) She isn't very aggressive, but she's quite a caller.

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She showed Jh5c, and stole the pot.


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In my experience, people who are "quite a caller" virtually never raise a drawless board on a total bluff. And people who are capable of bluff raising in such a situation do it often enough for you to take note.

I'm not trying to be too harsh here, but if you want to look for a mistake that you made in this hand it's most likely that you read a heavy bluffer as a loose calling station.

[peterchi]

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I can check my PT database for you when I get home from work if you'd like. If the suited aces are losers then I will eat my hat and your eye-patch.

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On second thought, I don't have nearly enough hands in my 2/4 database for this to prove anything (only 16k). But FWIW here's my data in bb/100:

A9s: -.07
A8s: +.03
A7s: +.09
A6s: +.17
A5s: +.46
A4s: +.70
A3s: -.63
A2s: +.15

(My VPIP with all of these is 70+).

So... if you really need solid evidence, I may have to get back to you on this (if I ever do play enough hands of 2/4, that is).

[callmedonnie]

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I disagree. I think playing any suited ace is going get you sucked in to too many pots when you limp and someone raise. I think it is a leak if you do constantly.

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Donnie it really depends on the table but if five or six bad players are seeing every flop usually unraised then folding Axs from anywhere is bad IMO. This type of game is alot more common live than online.

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Live this is definitely more standard. This I know. However, I think we still need to be careful, especially with regard to position. I used to play many more suited Aces. I found that it felt like when I limped I was gambling on whether or not someone would raise behind me. I know a phrase like that can always be true, but all I'm saying is if you have to put in two bets w/ this hand over time I think you lose $.

It is acceptable as long as we are careful and selective. Sorry for all this, but there was an absolute statement mentioned saying it was always right. That I strongly disagree with (obviously).

[Felipe]

I can check my PT database for you when I get home from work if you'd like. If the suited aces are losers then I will eat my hat and your eye-patch.

hahahaha. Solid Gold!

[Felipe]

Live this is definitely more standard. This I know. However, I think we still need to be careful, especially with regard to position. I used to play many more suited Aces. I found that it felt like when I limped I was gambling on whether or not someone would raise behind me. I know a phrase like that can always be true, but all I'm saying is if you have to put in two bets w/ this hand over time I think you lose $.

I'm with you on this completely. If the game is often going to be 3-4 handed and likely to be raised (say 30% PFR) Axs from middle position is a money loser. Except ATs and above. Not playing your a9s-a2s with 4-7 limpers with PFR of less than 10% (15%???) is a money losing scenario. Actually folding Axs here is -EV, IMO. OMG!

In this hand, my call may have been a little off, considering only two limpers so far.. I was in MP and counting on a few extra limpers (two?)

Felipe