Two 6-12 hands

[bvaughn]

Here's a couple more hands from yesterday's 6-12 session at Grand in Kinder, LA.

Hand 1: I am dealt A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif A /forums/images/icons/club.gif in late position after two limpers. I raise. All fold to BB who calls, limpers call.
Flop 10 6 8 rainbow.
BB bets, UTG calls, I raise, BB calls, UTG calls.
Turn 5
BB check, UTG check, I bet $12. BB calls, UTG calls.
River 9 (anyone got a 7?)
BB check, UTG check, I bet $12. BB calls, UTG folds. I show AA, BB shows KK and I take the pot.

Seems like a pretty straight forward hand to me. Does anyone wait till the turn to raise with a straight draw on the board?

Hand 2: I'm dealt A /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif on the button. Three limpers to me, and I limp. (raise here?) SB completes, BB checks.
Flop comes x /forums/images/icons/club.gif x /forums/images/icons/club.gif x /forums/images/icons/heart.gif
SB checks, BB bets, all three limpers call, I just call (weak or keep them calling?) SB folds.
Turn comes x /forums/images/icons/club.gif (woohoo, the nuts)
BB bets, all three limpers call, I just call hoping to get 4 more big bets on river from the BB and limpers.
River x /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif (no pair on board)
BB bets, all three limpers fold (?!?), I raise and BB folds saying nice flush.

I think I missed out on some bets here somewhere. I was trying to get cute on the turn and not announce to everyone that I had the flush, but they might have called or they might have all folded. I really should have raised preflop after 3 limpers which would have gotten at least 2 more big bets in the pot preflop, but then the BB might not have been so aggressive and bet my hand for me. Anyone play this hand differently?

[Ulysses]

Hand 1: Seems like a pretty straight forward hand to me. Does anyone wait till the turn to raise with a straight draw on the board?

Yep, it was pretty straightforward and I think that's the right way to play that one. Let's just think about the times when you are ahead start to finish. Look at the tradeoff. Best case, you make two extra BB on the turn. But to do that, you sacrifice one BB on the flop. And there's no guarantee both will call the turn raise. And there's no guarantee anyone bets into you on the turn. And sometimes both have gutshots that would call the flop raise but will check-fold the turn and you actually make less. So, you're trading an almost sure one BB on the flop for a possible two BB on the turn. Straightforward is the way to go.

Hand 2: I was trying to get cute on the turn and not announce to everyone that I had the flush, but they might have called or they might have all folded.
Raise the turn. Weak players don't like to fold on a street where they've already put in a bet. Raise and let smaller flushes, big flush draws, two pairs or straights, and tenacious one pairs all pay you off. And then the pot might even be big enough for multiple players to call you on the river! Great how that works, isn't it?

I really should have raised preflop after 3 limpers which would have gotten at least 2 more big bets in the pot preflop
I think raising A5s in that situation is a mistake. I don't want to lose the blinds in this situation and I'd rather invest less than more in this hand pre-flop.

[elysium]

hi bv,
well, let's see here, o.k., no problem with how hand 1 was played, the only thing here is that you don't know for sure that you played it correctly. there's a little doubt or confusion there. so, that's the issue. you need to get hfap and top. hit the threads, etc. o.k., hand 2;

o.k., hand 2 was mangled very badly. you should not play for money at this time. forget about your game. you must get the fundementals down. it doesn't do any good to comment on this hand. that's bad advice for you at this time. the best advice is to do what you're doing now, learning at 2+2, but staying out of games for money. you're gambling at the level you're playing at now. this isn't a gambling site. approach from the objective of learning theory at this time, not specific hands. then, once you have that accomplished, the advice will make sense. right now, you'll go off telling you're friends that a bunch of jerks at 2+2 told you to scare everyone out with your nut flush by wrecklessly betting into the crowd on the turn.

after you have read hfap, the advice will start to make more sense.

[JTG51]

Hand 1 was just fine, that's the way I'd play it almost every time.

Hand 2 is another story. I would help to know the exact cards, but you should definitely raise the flop. Since you forgot to do that, you should have definitely raised the turn. You can't jam the nuts if you never raise them. Sometimes when you raise someone else will 3-bet and you'll get to win a really big pot. If you have any doubt about that, take a look at the thread I just started, "3 hands, 75 big bets!".

Plus, in this case you missed a chance to collect extra bets from people with a single big club.

[Bob T.]

Does anyone wait till the turn to raise with a straight draw on the board?


No, Raise early, you will be able to get the most money in on the flop, and although AA is a nice hand, it is really only one pair, although it is a good one. AA is not a good hand to slow play, unless maybe you are headsup with a smart aggressive opponent.


I think I missed out on some bets here somewhere. I was trying to get cute on the turn and not announce to everyone that I had the flush, but they might have called or they might have all folded. I really should have raised preflop after 3 limpers which would have gotten at least 2 more big bets in the pot preflop, but then the BB might not have been so aggressive and bet my hand for me. Anyone play this hand differently?

You don't need to raise on the button here preflop, it is an option, but I think that this hand makes its money on implied odds, so I would rather keep my preflop investment small.

On the flop however, you really missed an opportunity. On a two tone flop, two types of hands have an interest in betting the flop. 1) made hands want to charge those drawing the maximum to catch up, and 2) hands with big draws, want to value bet the flop, because a little over 1/3 of the money that goes into the pot, is going into your theorhetical stack, so with three opponents, you are getting 3 to 1 on a 1 to 2 underdog, so you can bet, and raise, as long as you have at least two opponents.

Playing a nut draw aggressively on the flop has other advantages, besides the value that you get out of those bets. Players might not be sure whether you were betting a draw, or a made hand, so when your draw comes in, your hand might be a little disguised. This is especially nice, when someone makes the second best flush, and checkraises your turn bet, allowing you to three bet the turn (lets see, you bet and raised your draw on the flop, and now you get to three bet the nuts on the turn, can you say BIG pot).

Your opponents might check to your strength on the turn, and now you also have an option of taking a free card, if you believe that you don't have sufficient chance of winning the pot with a bet.

After you called the flop, you should probably raise the turn, because players with a single big club might call, but they won't call after they have missed on the river. I think that you left a lot on the table with your play here.

[TobDog]

Hand 1: I think straightforward, nothing special, if you have what figures to be the best hand, get the $ in, most important, don't get fancy.

Hand 2: I think you got fancy, having the exact cards is somewhat important, if there is a straight possibility, or a straight draw possibility, you might get more action. I read something not too long ago about this topic, I remember if your opponents are drawing, they will NOT pay you off on the river, but they will chase you on the turn. Raising here(on the turn) should be the common play, also, if any of your opponents turned a flush too, you can get counterfit on the river if a 4th shows up and kills your action, you will not get raised by lets say 6 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif if there are 4 clubs on board, you will on the turn buy that guy trying to chase out the A /forums/images/icons/club.gif , too bad for him, you are laready there.

[Ed Miller]

Hand 1 you played fine, but hand 2 you played atrociously. You clearly should raise the flop for value, and for a potential free card on the turn, with four people already having called. Your failure to raise the turn was simply an enormous error. You need to raise while people are still drawing (hopefully dead). People tend to fold on the river when they miss, as you noticed.

[bvaughn]

Well, it's clear that I left a lot of money on the table in Hand 2. I appreciate the advice from everyone. Question about elysium's advice though...he says to read HPFAP, which I have a couple of times, and to quit "gambling". I realize that A5s is not a Group 1 or 2 hand, but on the button after 3 limpers, wouldn't S&M play this every time for one bet?

Next time I play, I hope to have a similar situation arise and have a chance to make those extra bets that I missed.

[PokerPrince]

Reading hand #2 had me shaking my head in disgust. How could you let such a precious gift go so unrewarded? Forget these silly ideas about slowplaying and deception. You're playing micro-limits against monkeys! You could show them the nuts and they'de probably still call just to keep you honest. Trust me, they aren't going anywhere. They have money "invested" in the pot and that means they are glued in til' the river.

PokerPrince

[sucka]

Question about elysium's advice though...

Completely disregard that guys posts (elysium). I'd be willing to bet that this guy has never played a hand of poker in his life. 95% of the garbled junk he puts up is utterly worthless.

[Bob T.]

I hate to put words in elysiums mouth, there seem to be enough there already, but what I think he was saying was 'anyone who plays a nut flush draw this poorly, for their own good, shouldn't be allowed to play for real money'. And you have to admit, he didn't play it well.

[elysium]

hi bvaughn
i agree that your cards are very playable. that's not the issue. you need more study before entering into live action of any kind. we know by your post what is going on. we know you're not telling us about the 54s you're limping first in with; we know that you're calling 2 bets when it gets back around to you. we don't care about the AA you post. we are worried about the KJo you're playing UTG. and we care about the time you called a capped river with the bottom end of the straight. let me read your post again. hmmm.....you also did it with a baby flush? a 6 high flush? that's what you're saying. i'm not saying it you are. let's see what else is in your post. yep, just as i suspected; you called that old guy's UTG raise with KTo? so what you were only 2 seats away from the CO? let's see what else is in your little post....hmmmm, read it twice. read it twice. i'm looking at my sceen bvaughn. i'm trying to think of something to say that will convince you of the folly of arguing back with,"but i've read it twice", when you are really thinking "my gosh, how does he know?".

you need to at least begin somewhere. start with basic theory. tune in here to 2+2. there are a lot of books out there bvaughn and the thing is you may enjoy learning as much as playing. then you wouldn't be tempted to come in with the A4 both red. how do i know? how could i not know, bvaughn. for crying out loud, it's one of your favorite plays.

[Ulysses]

Playing a nut draw aggressively on the flop has other advantages, besides the value that you get out of those bets. Players might not be sure whether you were betting a draw, or a made hand, so when your draw comes in, your hand might be a little disguised. This is especially nice, when someone makes the second best flush, and checkraises your turn bet, allowing you to three bet the turn

To illustrate Bob's point... This happened in a recent 15-30 session. I have KdTd in MP. I open-raise. I get four callers. Flop is 788 w/ two diamonds. Checked to me, I bet. Two callers. Turn is another diamond. Checked to me, I bet. Next guy calls. Next guy checkraises me. I 3-bet and both call. River is a blank, I bet, and both call. I win.

[bvaughn]

elysium, your post is confusing and hard to read, but I get the point. I am studying and I am reading. I don't claim to know it all, and in fact I'll claim to be a poker idiot at this point. I'm 28 and I was introduced to poker (hold em) about a year ago by my father-in-law who plays beyond atrocious. After losing money trip after trip, I knew there had to be a better way to do this. I enjoyed the hell out of playing, but I hated losing. So I bought some books, found some websites, played some online (play and real money) and tried to find my way around. I don't have the luxury of being surrounded by people who know how to play poker...to borrow a phrase from PokerPrince, I usually play with a bunch of monkeys. I may play like a monkey to you, and you might beat the hell out of me at poker, but I'll guarantee you this...I'm still studying, I will get better, and I will be successful. I appreciate your advice and the advice of people who obviously know more than I do.

And as far as your premise that I need to study a lot more before I step back into live action of any kind, I want to ask you this...is live playing experience not just as valuable as studying? I agree 100% that I need to study more. Right now, I play for fun and I might take some knocks, and lose some bets, but the experience I gain will be invaluable. As badly as I probably play right now, I'm still up since I started tracking my results 155 live hours ago. So I'm not bleeding my money away, I'm having fun, and hopefully I'm learning. How did you learn how to play and how did you gain experience? Also, how high do you play and how would you rate your play compared to your peers?

[elysium]

hi bvaughn
i agree that it is possible to learn in live action games; but as i write this, i am reminded about the story arnold shwartzanegger mr. olympia famed movie star, told about how when he was competeing for mr. universe, the coaches of the other contestants would try to have their body builder room in with arnold before the competition. and arnold loved this because he had a vested interest in winning, and he would give his competitor bad advice so that he would be disqualified and arnold could advance with minimal effort. arnold told one guy to get on the stage and scream like a mad man. arnold told him to raise his arms up and scream with a shrill high pitch. and the bring his arms down low, and scream real low, like pavarotti. and arnolds competitor did as arnold instructed, and they dragged him off stage. they thought the guy was crazy. and of course, arnold advanced with minimal effort.

if someone tells you, "don't listen to elysium. yes you can learn at the table, only when you raise your arms up real high, scream real low, and when you .....", well, you get the picture.

information, when it's good , takes an enormous amount of effort to process and apply accurately at the table. only when some of the less complicated aspects become second nature, can you apply them at the same time with some of the more complicated stuff. this can be very tiring until you get adjusted to the thousands of things happening.

i've only been playing about a year and a half. and i really didn't grasp some of the more intricate ideas until coming here to 2+2. i've only played the twenty game once and have played 1-4-8 spread about 5 times. never played on the net. you've been playing i think longer than me? i don't have it in front. yea, i got beat up my first couple outtings. but i went totally prepared. i read hfap 3 times! yea, the 'ol boys sure loved it when i used to bragg too. no. when i heard you say that,.... anyway, the theories don't click until hfap and top, along with a lot of other good info, becomes like rote. and then you need to hit 2+2 and listen to clarkmeister, dynasty, pokerprince, m.b.e., majorkong, astroglide, and many others. homer comes up with some good info, all for free if you use it. i have been tuned in to 2+2 for about a year. i have all the books, etc. i have learned a lot from mr. mike caro too. there's mr. abdul, a lot of teachers out there who can, if you take the time to process the info, be of great help. and of course, it's also learning itself that often becomes the motivating factor.

and that may be the best part. these teachers will learn you.

and remember, keep pre-planning!