Please help, need advice (long)

First of all, I would like to say "hello" to everybody. This (I think) will be my first post on these boards (I - apparently - unsuccessfully attempted to post a similar message last night).

On to the problem:

I am contemplating the idea of becoming a "professional" poker player. I don't really know what the exact definition of a "professional" poker player is, but I think of it as someone whose only source of income is playing poker on a regular basis. And this is what I hope to eventually be doing.

I started playing Texas Hold 'Em approximately 6 months ago. My friend, who has been playing for years and knows quite a few people who play semi-professionally, introduced me to the game. I was never really into "gambling" before I started playing, and I really don't think I would be interested in any other form of "gambling" besides Hold 'Em. I'm just not a "gambler." The only reason I play poker is because I am good at it, and I find myself making over ten times what I make at work when I am on top of my game.

The only problem is that I will occasionally have a bad luck streak, where the cards just don't work. I am an aggressive player, and sometimes I just don't get the cards that I expect to come. Some nights, it seems as if that's all that happens, and I lose my entire $300 stack in just a few hours (I play 6/12 cash games at Commerce Casino, CA).

Does anybody have any suggestions/advice for me? Should I go "pro?" Should I just play part-time? What kind of bankroll should I have for playing 6/12 games on a regular basis? Is it better/easier to play online versus brick-and-mortar? Am I just a newbie fish that should get the heck out of your world?

I would appreciate some constructive criticism/helpful advice. I would like to thank anybody who helps in advance. And please, no jokers. I am serious about this.


Edit: Don't be afraid to ask clarification questions. If there's anything you'd like to know about this subject, just ask. I will answer any intelligent questions.

[pudley4]

1 - You're not as good as you think you are. (No one is, but newer players are especially susceptible to the "I've been running well and am a poker god" mentality)

2 - Before you even think about playing for a living you need several things: A) Several months of proven success. Not just "I win more than I lose" or "I had a good few weeks". Documentation of exactly how much you're winning/losing is essential. B) Several months of expenses which are separate from your bankroll. You will absolutely go through losing streaks and months where you don't win enough to cover the bills (and some months where you don't win, period). You cannot afford to dip into your bankroll to cover these expenses, as that will open you up to a bigger disaster - busting out. C)You need a bankroll which is separate from your spending money. 300 BB is the normal suggestion, but 500 BB is much better. This should allow you a bigger cushion against the inevitable downswing, and can prevent you from having to drop down in limits when you start losing.

3 - Playing online for a living is significantly easier than trying to play in a cardroom. You can play any hours you'd like; you don't have to drive to the room and then wait for a seat; you can play multiple tables at the same time; you can get rakebacks and bonuses which add to your earnings; you can use programs like Pokertracker and Playerview/PokerAce to help track your play and your opponent's play.

4 - Go to the archives, search for all posts by davidross. He started his poker career over 2 years ago and gave weekly updates for the first year about his journey. It's a great read and will give you a lot of insight into the difficulties of becoming a professional.

[Seth Money]

Great,

I admire your courage and this post but here is what I think everytime I see a post about "going pro". I think that you should get in there and play some games, I mean games for a while, learn the game, and if you are winning consistently eventually everything will fall into place. I mean look at the great pros of sports, Tiger Woods for instance the man won everything he could before he reached the elite level and even before that he was just an amatuer, he nothing left to do but go pro, so pretty much he fell into it. I say this I think a lot of people think that going pro in the poker world means that you have to declare your amatuership null, not so. I think your results will dictacte your ability to determine if you can do this full time. There's no agents and no signing bonuses. If you want to be the best, go out there and play your ass off and stop worrying about the definition of the game but don't lose site of other things if your endevours fail here (not saying they will)

Now lets get to these other questions your talking about. Bankroll, if your playing seriously I wouldn't be involved in a full time lifestyle with less then 600 BB but I like security. Online v BM, it all depends on what you are more comfortable with. I spent 3 years in a BM playing limit poker and I loved every minute of it, then the poker room manager at the place I played told me i could me a lot moer online and bankrolled me (funny huh) So I think you should get an equal balance of both worlds.

Yes, you are a newbie, but we all were and to be honest posting here I am not far from your status. This is a great place to learn, be open minded about your game and you will get better for being here. If you have any other questions, you can PM me.

Seth

[wheelz]

THE TRUTH (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3136275&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1&vc=1) about poker professionals

Thanks again for all the advice, guys. I just have a few questions, and a few responses.

First off, what the heck does "BB" stand for? Big Blind? I'm not sure what people are talking about when they are saying stuff like "I lost 200 BB" or "I'm winning 1.92 BB/100." Sorry if I'm asking a question you all see here fifty times a day, but I'm new to online poker chat jargon. Thanks in advance for your patience, understanding, and help.

Second...I read that "My failure as a poker pro" thread, and it sounds a tiny bit like what happened to me at first. I was really stupid and took everything I had to the casino and lost it all a couple times. I never moved up to compensate, never played online, and only entered one tournament before I realized I should not be playing in tournaments. And it only cost me $130.

I did do stupid crap like scam people for money to get a bankroll. I actually went on ebay and sold "merchandise cards" that didn't exist for around $200 each. I definitely overdrafted my bank account (which actually got charged off). I am in debt WAY over my eyeballs.

However, the reason I started doing all this is because a guy that I had just met (who turned out to be a coke addict) scammed me out of around $2,000 within a month. He was a friend of mine for about 6 months before he did this, and was apparently just setting me up the whole time.

So, he put me in a position where I NEEDED money, real bad. Unfortunately, I became unemployed at about the same time he scammed me, so I had no source of reliable income. To top it all off, I live in Los Angeles, where worth-while jobs can be very difficult to come by.

So, I scammed people (business owners who could afford it - not justifying it - but, they could). I got about $700 from the scam, took it all to the casino, and had a two-week long run. I was able to pay off about $1,000 worth of the damage that my "friend" had caused. I still owe about $2,000, due to interest, bounced checks, and whatever. I am actually facing criminal charges for a few $20 - $30 checks I wrote just after he took the money (which is ridiculous to me, because I had every intention of honoring those tiny checks, but was unable to because my "friend" never payed me back).

I am now taking a break from cash games, but keeping sharp at the play-money games on some online sites. I have a job as an administrative assistant at a great company through a temp agency. I am making $13.42/hour, which is great for me.

My plan, after long hours of conversations/contemplations and reading a ton of posts here at 2+2 is to save a little money every month until I have about $3,000 saved up for poker. Then, I will start playing poker online, at the level I feel comfortable with (5/10, 6/12), and just play whenever I have free time.

If my bankroll disappears with that plan, I will know that poker is not for me. I will quit and chalk it up as a neat experience. Like I said before, I am not really a "gambler." The crazy things I mentioned doing were done in an extreme situation. I was desparate at that time. I would have done almost anything to make money, and poker just happened to be the idea of the moment.

Now that my life is more stable, I truly feel that I can approach this thing with a level head and be smart about it. I have decided that I do NOT want to go pro, but I would like to see if I can make some extra money on the side to help me finance some fun in my life. I am okay with the idea that I might not be able to do this, but I am eager to see if it works out.

I am sure that some of the things I have done will shock some of you, and some of you might even think that I should stop playing poker all together. I appreciate your input, but would just like to reaffirm the fact that I do NOT have an addictive personality. I have even heard people tell me that I quit too soon, when my chips are up, that I should stay and "ride the wave." I know when to stop, and very rarely find myself on "tilt." I am perfectly happy with simply doubling up and leaving (most of the time). If I notice my chip stack dwindling after a few hours of winning, I will stop and go home.

I would appreciate any and all input concerning this long post. I certainly have appreciated the input so far. Thanks again.

[Seth Money]

Great,

Its unfortunate about the things that you did, I guess we all have skeletons in our closets and we just have to make better decisions as life goes on and learn from our wrong doings.

BB = Big bet or Big Blind

The typical standard is to have a bankroll of 300 BB or more for whatever limit your playing so if its 5/10 300 BB would be 3k. Coming from a brick and mortar background I would suggest coming in online and playing 2/4 or 3/6 to start, its a whole new world online and you will have to adjust. You will be amazed by both the swings and amount of hands you will seen in just one hour. Jumping into 5/10 prolly isn't the best idea. I tried to do the same thing and it was freaky different and I have grinded my way in live games over 3 years from 3/6 to 5/10 to 10/20 to 20/40, and well I think if you start at a lower level for a set amount of hands like 25k or so and see your results you will prove to yourself that you are committed to the game and are willing to work at it. If you just go to 5/10 like u said and lose (this may not be for me is what you said) I think thats the lazy's way out. You have to put in the time to get better and I will 99.99999% gurantee that none of these guys on this forum had no poker experience and jumped into the higher level games and succeeded. Just my .02 cents

Seth

[Guthrie]

Just what poker needs, a criminal who thinks he's entitled to steal from people because someone stole from him.

[jedi]

1) Just because someone scammed you doesn't mean you should scam other people.

2) You're not good enough to be a poker pro. Period. You may think you are, but you're not. The fact that it's obvious you haven't put much thought into the game tells me this. Who knows? Maybe you're the next Stu Ungar or the next Dynasty, but I don't think I'm losing too much by generalizing here.

3) Get yourself back on your feet legit, and play low stakes poker as a hobby while you do it. If you can't win playing part time, you can't win playing full time. Full time poker is very boring.

Good luck.

[ QUOTE ]
Great,

Its unfortunate about the things that you did, I guess we all have skeletons in our closets and we just have to make better decisions as life goes on and learn from our wrong doings.

BB = Big bet or Big Blind

The typical standard is to have a bankroll of 300 BB or more for whatever limit your playing so if its 5/10 300 BB would be 3k. Coming from a brick and mortar background I would suggest coming in online and playing 2/4 or 3/6 to start, its a whole new world online and you will have to adjust. You will be amazed by both the swings and amount of hands you will seen in just one hour. Jumping into 5/10 prolly isn't the best idea. I tried to do the same thing and it was freaky different and I have grinded my way in live games over 3 years from 3/6 to 5/10 to 10/20 to 20/40, and well I think if you start at a lower level for a set amount of hands like 25k or so and see your results you will prove to yourself that you are committed to the game and are willing to work at it. If you just go to 5/10 like u said and lose (this may not be for me is what you said) I think thats the lazy's way out. You have to put in the time to get better and I will 99.99999% gurantee that none of these guys on this forum had no poker experience and jumped into the higher level games and succeeded. Just my .02 cents

Seth

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, Seth, for explaining the "BB" thing to me.

As for the rest...well, I have played many 9/18 games at commerce, and actually have never lost money there. I only lose at 6/12 occassionally, and I tried 1/2, 2/4, and 4/8, with minimal success. I feel I am most comfortable at 9/18, but normally only have the funds for 6/12.

What I do is bring $300 to a 6/12 table, double up, cash out, secure my winnings in my vehicle, and walk back to the casino (reminding myself that I will not, for any reason, retrieve the money I just left in the car to play more poker). Then, I sit back down with $300 at another 6/12 table, and when I come up to $450, I move up to 9/18. If I get to this point, I am generally having a good night. So I normally pull a "hit and run" on the 9/18 table (VERY aggressive play for a short amount of time), and typically cash out with a 300% profit for the night.

Of course, that is on a good day.

So, do you still think I should stick to the lower stakes? I am pretty sure that my best live game is 9/18, as I have NEVER lost money at a 9/18 table. The lower stakes just end up really ticking me off, with all the river chasers catching miracle cards through oblivious play. It takes a lot to tick me off, but the players at really low stakes really seem to push my buttons (inadvertantly, I'm sure).

Example: I was down on my luck one night. This chick to my left (only playing because her bf was playing and had no idea how to play) at a 1/2 table had K 3 off-suit. I had pocket Aces. I think she was on the button, or close to it. Anyway, some idiot had raised ahead of me, and I (obviously) re-raised. She cold-called three bets pre-flop with K 3 off-suit.

The flop comes blank blank 3, giving her a pair of 3's. The idiot who raised pre-flop bets, I raise, and she CALLS! The same thing happens on the turn and river, only the river was a King, giving her two pair, to beat my pocket Aces. The only reason I didn't get up and start strangling her is because she was actually kinda hot, and I had been hitting on her (her bf was playing 20/40 on the other side of the casino). It probably wouldn't have helped me to get her number if I had attacked her. I didn't get her number anyway, so in retrospect, I should have choked the witch.

Anywho, what do you think? Still going with the 3/6 games?

Guthrie:

Again...I am not justifying what I did, just saying that I did it. I'm not proud of it, and I actually have sent out a few merchandise cards even after being reported for it. I intend to send out the rest as soon as I can afford them.

But thanks for the positive input.

[David04]

After reading your posts, I think that you are not ready to turn pro.

Jedi:

How do you know that I am not good enough to be a poker pro? Have you seen me play? Have you seen or heard anything about the way I play? Maybe there's a magazine article about me somewhere that I don't know about.

The bottom line is, I know I am at least decent. I also know I'm not the best, never said I was.

What's not okay is you making an uninformed attack on the way I play.

I appreciate the fact that you have taken time out of your day to try to offer some advice that you think might help me. But please, limit your response to things you are at least half-way knowledgeable of.

I will not attack you on subjects I know nothing of. Please extend to me the same courtesy, that's all I ask.

[EStreet20]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, what the heck does "BB" stand for?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not ready. Read up on hold'em. This statement alone lets anyone here know that you've never made it past the first few pages of any decent book on poker, hold'em or otherwise.

[ QUOTE ]
After reading your posts, I think that you are not ready to turn pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I hope you read the part where I said that I do not want to go pro. I am now just thinking about the possibility of making some extra money on the side playing poker.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First off, what the heck does "BB" stand for?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not ready. Read up on hold'em. This statement alone lets anyone here know that you've never made it past the first few pages of any decent book on poker, hold'em or otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, how about David Sklansky's "Hold 'Em for Advanced Players" and David Sklansky's "Small Stakes Hold 'Em?"

Are those decent books?

If you notice, right after I asked that question, I guessed that it meant "Big Blind." I was just unsure of the usage here, if it was what I thought it was. I'm actually still unsure of how it is used in some contexts.

Furthermore, some people have an innate talent for some things. I, for example, am very good at understanding people through body language, tone, and other factors. This is mostly due to the fact that I have met hundreds of thousands of people in my life.

Reading books on poker is not the only way to become a good poker player. Just like reading books on art is not the only way to become a good artist. Some people can pick up a guitar and make good music without a single lesson, through good old-fashioned practice.

I am interested in becoming a better poker player, and that's why I have read a few books on the subject (very good books, I might add). And that's also why I am here, writing on these posts, having to defend myself against people who seem determined to discourage me, for some unknown reason.

But thanks for your positive input.

[EStreet20]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you know that I am not good enough to be a poker pro? Have you seen me play? Have you seen or heard anything about the way I play?

[/ QUOTE ]

We've heard you admit to not knowing basic terminology. On top of that, your talk about how you do in live games, where the play is generally a million times worse than online, and the fact that you're proud of wins there while you also admit that you're not confident enough to leave money on the table in a limit game leads me to believe that you'd get eaten alive (and go dead broke) playing 5-10 or even a limit or two lower online, and with the winrate you described in live games you couldn't support yourself.

Either way, good luck

Matt

P.S. I'm not talking trash, simply answering the questions I quoted from your post.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great,

Its unfortunate about the things that you did, I guess we all have skeletons in our closets and we just have to make better decisions as life goes on and learn from our wrong doings.

BB = Big bet or Big Blind

The typical standard is to have a bankroll of 300 BB or more for whatever limit your playing so if its 5/10 300 BB would be 3k. Coming from a brick and mortar background I would suggest coming in online and playing 2/4 or 3/6 to start, its a whole new world online and you will have to adjust. You will be amazed by both the swings and amount of hands you will seen in just one hour. Jumping into 5/10 prolly isn't the best idea. I tried to do the same thing and it was freaky different and I have grinded my way in live games over 3 years from 3/6 to 5/10 to 10/20 to 20/40, and well I think if you start at a lower level for a set amount of hands like 25k or so and see your results you will prove to yourself that you are committed to the game and are willing to work at it. If you just go to 5/10 like u said and lose (this may not be for me is what you said) I think thats the lazy's way out. You have to put in the time to get better and I will 99.99999% gurantee that none of these guys on this forum had no poker experience and jumped into the higher level games and succeeded. Just my .02 cents

Seth

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, Seth, for explaining the "BB" thing to me.

As for the rest...well, I have played many 9/18 games at commerce, and actually have never lost money there. I only lose at 6/12 occassionally, and I tried 1/2, 2/4, and 4/8, with minimal success. I feel I am most comfortable at 9/18, but normally only have the funds for 6/12.

What I do is bring $300 to a 6/12 table, double up, cash out, secure my winnings in my vehicle, and walk back to the casino (reminding myself that I will not, for any reason, retrieve the money I just left in the car to play more poker). Then, I sit back down with $300 at another 6/12 table, and when I come up to $450, I move up to 9/18. If I get to this point, I am generally having a good night. So I normally pull a "hit and run" on the 9/18 table (VERY aggressive play for a short amount of time), and typically cash out with a 300% profit for the night.

Of course, that is on a good day.

So, do you still think I should stick to the lower stakes? I am pretty sure that my best live game is 9/18, as I have NEVER lost money at a 9/18 table. The lower stakes just end up really ticking me off, with all the river chasers catching miracle cards through oblivious play. It takes a lot to tick me off, but the players at really low stakes really seem to push my buttons (inadvertantly, I'm sure).

Example: I was down on my luck one night. This chick to my left (only playing because her bf was playing and had no idea how to play) at a 1/2 table had K 3 off-suit. I had pocket Aces. I think she was on the button, or close to it. Anyway, some idiot had raised ahead of me, and I (obviously) re-raised. She cold-called three bets pre-flop with K 3 off-suit.

The flop comes blank blank 3, giving her a pair of 3's. The idiot who raised pre-flop bets, I raise, and she CALLS! The same thing happens on the turn and river, only the river was a King, giving her two pair, to beat my pocket Aces. The only reason I didn't get up and start strangling her is because she was actually kinda hot, and I had been hitting on her (her bf was playing 20/40 on the other side of the casino). It probably wouldn't have helped me to get her number if I had attacked her. I didn't get her number anyway, so in retrospect, I should have choked the witch.

Anywho, what do you think? Still going with the 3/6 games?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its very tempting to call you an idiot. But the truth is you just haven't been exposed to some of the basic concepts of the game and ignorance is not the same thing as idiocy.

Its worthwile to learn how to play low stakes poker, your typical conditions there will arise even in higher stakes games on occasion (or more frequently) and you ought to know how to play those conditions.

Lower stakes games are (generally speaking) easier games. When you have a lot of bad players makeing bad mistakes there is a much greater profit potential. It may be swingier, sure, but you aren't there to play one game, you're there to play many games over a lifetime, and so over the long term you want the games full of bad players playing badly.

Do I want somebody cold calling two raises with K-3 off when I have AA. You bet your ass I do. Do I want them calling two bets on every street with bottom pair? You bet I do. Am I disappointed when they hit a five outer to beat me on the river--sure, a little. But do I want them to do it again when I get AA? You bet I do.

On a side note, if you get 3000 bucks together jump into 5/10 and lose it do you really have to decide poker is not for you? You could start smaller, learn the game well and keep moving up as you improve? Also, there seems to be a consensus that 5/10 online is a tougher game than 5/10 live.

Anyway, good luck to you, hang out and learn some stuff, and enjoy poker as a sideline to your regular job.

--Zetack

[DemonDeac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After reading your posts, I think that you are not ready to turn pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I hope you read the part where I said that I do not want to go pro. I am now just thinking about the possibility of making some extra money on the side playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

well in ur original post you said u are considering being a professional and defined a profession as someone who plays poker and poker is their only source of income. and then u say here that u just want money on the side.

which one is it?

that said, from what ive read,i dont think you're ready. dont take offense to it. this all seems to be short term play. professional poker is a long term thing, something you do not seem to have dealt with

[bdohaney]

I am just a novice, here still, but in addition to everything everyone else has said, you are not in the right mindframe to play winning poker. You are playing because you NEED the money, to the point of desperation (if scamming people on e-bay isn't desperate, I don't know what is.) Get a job. A real job, EARN some money, play poker because you enjoy it, read books, study it, and once it truly becomes profitable just playing for fun (once you start making more money than you do from your job CONSISTANTLY, and have a large sum of that money saved up.) Then you could consider going pro. Until then, all you are doing is fooling yourself.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you know that I am not good enough to be a poker pro? Have you seen me play? Have you seen or heard anything about the way I play?

[/ QUOTE ]

We've heard you admit to not knowing basic terminology. On top of that, your talk about how you do in live games, where the play is generally a million times worse than online, and the fact that you're proud of wins there while you also admit that you're not confident enough to leave money on the table in a limit game leads me to believe that you'd get eaten alive (and go dead broke) playing 5-10 or even a limit or two lower online, and with the winrate you described in live games you couldn't support yourself.

Either way, good luck

Matt

P.S. I'm not talking trash, simply answering the questions I quoted from your post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said I wasn't confident enough to leave money on the table? The only reason I take my chips and cash out is to be safe. I am fully confident of my skills at the table. I just don't have a bankroll, and I'm pretty sure it's a smart move to cover your nuts when it comes to bankroll.

As far as my win rate, what do you mean? That I typically see a 300% profit on a good night? Is that low? I seriously don't know. It sounds good to me. Making $150/hour is a lot better than what most people make at just about any decent-paying 9-5 job.

As for whether or not live play is easier than online play, well, if the way people play at these sites for fake money is any indication of how horrible they play for real money, I'll be making a lot more than $150/hour online.

For example...I have been on vacation at my mother's house in southern Florida since last Tuesday. I started playing free games on jimfeistpoker.com (a Canadian site) with just $1,000 starting money. I have been playing an average of about 3 hours per day, and am already up over $8,000, playing 5/10 games. That number would be higher, but people there raise aggressively with the crap-end of a 2 8 8 flop (meaning they have a deuce in hand). That kind of stuff throws me off. Perhaps they are just playing like retards because it is free to do so. I would like to think that they are just like me, trying to learn how to play real poker, and practicing for the real money games.

Maybe I'm wrong, though. I don't know. That's why I'm asking you guys for help.

It would be nice if everybody stopped attacking me and helped me out. Look at the name of the thread if there's any more confusion. If you get the urge to attack me, just remember that I have asked nicely for your help, not your insults.

[ QUOTE ]
well in ur original post you said u are considering being a professional and defined a profession as someone who plays poker and poker is their only source of income. and then u say here that u just want money on the side.

which one is it?

that said, from what ive read,i dont think you're ready. dont take offense to it. this all seems to be short term play. professional poker is a long term thing, something you do not seem to have dealt with

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I have made myself pretty clear on several occassions throughout this thread that I am now only thinking about playing poker part-time, for extra money on the side.

So, no, I DO NOT WANT TO GO PRO ANYMORE.

Not taking offense just a little aggravated that I have reiterate myself so many times for people to actually hear what I am saying.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Jedi:

How do you know that I am not good enough to be a poker pro? Have you seen me play? Have you seen or heard anything about the way I play? Maybe there's a magazine article about me somewhere that I don't know about.

The bottom line is, I know I am at least decent. I also know I'm not the best, never said I was.

What's not okay is you making an uninformed attack on the way I play.

I appreciate the fact that you have taken time out of your day to try to offer some advice that you think might help me. But please, limit your response to things you are at least half-way knowledgeable of.

I will not attack you on subjects I know nothing of. Please extend to me the same courtesy, that's all I ask.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am generalizing based on your previous comments. If you're really that good, then you can ignore what I say without worrying about what the next idiot thinks. And if you're that good, then I'll gladly admit that I'm wrong, but when people come in and talk about stuff in ways that shows they haven't thought about the game that much, then one of two things are likely: 1) They aren't as good as they think they are, or 2) They're a HUGE natural talent that doesn't need to study the game. Most people are #1 so I'm generalizing based on that.

I'm not trying to attack you per se, but realize that most people who write posts like this overestimate their playing ability.

Good luck.

[ QUOTE ]
Its very tempting to call you an idiot. But the truth is you just haven't been exposed to some of the basic concepts of the game and ignorance is not the same thing as idiocy.

Its worthwile to learn how to play low stakes poker, your typical conditions there will arise even in higher stakes games on occasion (or more frequently) and you ought to know how to play those conditions.

Lower stakes games are (generally speaking) easier games. When you have a lot of bad players makeing bad mistakes there is a much greater profit potential. It may be swingier, sure, but you aren't there to play one game, you're there to play many games over a lifetime, and so over the long term you want the games full of bad players playing badly.

Do I want somebody cold calling two raises with K-3 off when I have AA. You bet your ass I do. Do I want them calling two bets on every street with bottom pair? You bet I do. Am I disappointed when they hit a five outer to beat me on the river--sure, a little. But do I want them to do it again when I get AA? You bet I do.

On a side note, if you get 3000 bucks together jump into 5/10 and lose it do you really have to decide poker is not for you? You could start smaller, learn the game well and keep moving up as you improve? Also, there seems to be a consensus that 5/10 online is a tougher game than 5/10 live.

Anyway, good luck to you, hang out and learn some stuff, and enjoy poker as a sideline to your regular job.

--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you're saying, and I sincerely appreciate the restraint you have shown in not attacking me.

I hope you don't think that I, after having read Sklansky's books on Hold 'Em, would not want to play with bad players. I realize that they are the only reasons I am able to make money sometimes. I was referring to my aggravation with the fact that I was running bad that night.

I'm sure every player here has experienced the same feelings of anger and aggravation due to a long night of bad luck. It's only human to feel that way.

When I talk to my friends about it, they say "it happens to us all," and "I know how ya feel, bud." What's up with you people attacking me, as if I'm some monster because I got a little emotional during a game of poker?

I'm not saying that you, Zetack, are attacking me. I'm just frustrated about the fact that I continually have to defend myself here. As if nobody else has ever done what I have done, and everybody posting their advice on this thread is perfect.

[ QUOTE ]
1 - You're not as good as you think you are. (No one is, but newer players are especially susceptible to the "I've been running well and am a poker god" mentality)

2 - Before you even think about playing for a living you need several things: A) Several months of proven success. Not just "I win more than I lose" or "I had a good few weeks". Documentation of exactly how much you're winning/losing is essential. B) Several months of expenses which are separate from your bankroll. You will absolutely go through losing streaks and months where you don't win enough to cover the bills (and some months where you don't win, period). You cannot afford to dip into your bankroll to cover these expenses, as that will open you up to a bigger disaster - busting out. C)You need a bankroll which is separate from your spending money. 300 BB is the normal suggestion, but 500 BB is much better. This should allow you a bigger cushion against the inevitable downswing, and can prevent you from having to drop down in limits when you start losing.

3 - Playing online for a living is significantly easier than trying to play in a cardroom. You can play any hours you'd like; you don't have to drive to the room and then wait for a seat; you can play multiple tables at the same time; you can get rakebacks and bonuses which add to your earnings; you can use programs like Pokertracker and Playerview/PokerAce to help track your play and your opponent's play.

4 - Go to the archives, search for all posts by davidross. He started his poker career over 2 years ago and gave weekly updates for the first year about his journey. It's a great read and will give you a lot of insight into the difficulties of becoming a professional.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would just like to say "thank you very much" to this individual who, so far, has made the most helpful comment to me on this thread. This is excellent advice, excellent criticism, and I do not feel like he attacked me in any way.

Sir, you are a true wrodsmith, and a good person. Thanks for your help.

[LIRob23]

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
I am contemplating the idea of becoming a "professional" poker player. I started playing Texas Hold 'Em approximately 6 months ago .

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #1


[ QUOTE ]
and sometimes I just don't get the cards that I expect to come.

[/ QUOTE ] Bad Sign #1


[ QUOTE ]
what the heck does "BB" stand for

[/ QUOTE ]Red Flag #2


[ QUOTE ]
I was really stupid and took everything I had to the casino and lost it all a couple times.

[/ QUOTE ] Bad Sign #2

[ QUOTE ]
I never moved up to compensate

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #3

[ QUOTE ]
I did do stupid crap like scam people for money to get a bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ] You are a scumbag, die.

[ QUOTE ]
I tried 1/2, 2/4, and 4/8, with minimal success.

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #4
[ QUOTE ]
The lower stakes just end up really ticking me off, with all the river chasers catching miracle cards through oblivious play.

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #5
[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is, I know I am at least decent.

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #6
[ QUOTE ]
When I talk to my friends about it, they say "it happens to us all," and "I know how ya feel, bud." What's up with you people attacking me, as if I'm some monster because I got a little emotional during a game of poker?

[/ QUOTE ] We are not your friends. Especially after you admitted you are a criminal to us. [ QUOTE ]
if the way people play at these sites for fake money is any indication of how horrible they play for real money, I'll be making a lot more than $150/hour online.


[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #7 [ QUOTE ]
Am I just a newbie fish that should get the heck out of your world?

[/ QUOTE ] No, You are a newbie, fish, scamming jackass who feels justified in scamming people because you were a moron and fell victim to a scam yourself. Go away. Based on all your posts, I am quite confident in asserting that you do not have the skills necessary to be in the top 8 percent of poker. And make no mistake, it is only the top 8 percent of players that actually show a profit online. Therefore, you will lose.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am contemplating the idea of becoming a "professional" poker player. I started playing Texas Hold 'Em approximately 6 months ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
Red Flag #1
[ QUOTE ]
and sometimes I just don't get the cards that I expect to come.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad Sign #1
[ QUOTE ]
what the heck does "BB" stand for

[/ QUOTE ]
Red Flag #2
[ QUOTE ]
I was really stupid and took everything I had to the casino and lost it all a couple times.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad Sign #2 [ QUOTE ]
I never moved up to compensate

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #3

[ QUOTE ]
I did do stupid crap like scam people for money to get a bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ] You are a scumbag, die.

[ QUOTE ]
I tried 1/2, 2/4, and 4/8, with minimal success.

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #4 [ QUOTE ]
The lower stakes just end up really ticking me off, with all the river chasers catching miracle cards through oblivious play.

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #5 [ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is, I know I am at least decent.

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #6 [ QUOTE ]
When I talk to my friends about it, they say "it happens to us all," and "I know how ya feel, bud." What's up with you people attacking me, as if I'm some monster because I got a little emotional during a game of poker?

[/ QUOTE ] We are not your friends. Especially after you admitted you are a criminal to us. [ QUOTE ]
if the way people play at these sites for fake money is any indication of how horrible they play for real money, I'll be making a lot more than $150/hour online.


[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #7 [ QUOTE ]
Am I just a newbie fish that should get the heck out of your world?

[/ QUOTE ] No, You are a newbie, fish, scamming jackass who feels justified in scamming people because you were a moron and fell victim to a scam yourself. Go away. Based on all your posts, I am quite confident in asserting that you do not have the skills necessary to be in the top 8 percent of poker. And make no mistake, it is only the top 8 percent of players that actually show a profit online. Therefore, you will lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does posting stuff like this make you feel smart?

I hope it does. I hope you feel all warm and tingly inside when you post things like this. Perhaps you even spurt in your shorts a little when you click on the "submit" button.

Tell me, what did you have to gain by posting this? Do you think that your fellow 2+2 Forum friends would all lift you on their shoulders and praise you for weeks for the witty list you created?

Insulting people is just as bad as scamming them.

I'm glad that you have chosen to stoop down to that level. It basically invalidates half of what you said on its own.

As for the other half, you have quite obviously taken what I have said out of context. Perhaps you should apply for a position with Fox News. I think you'd do well there.

But thanks for the positive input.

[ QUOTE ]
Mike, Im going to just come out and say it.

YOU ARE INDEED AN IDIOT.

Right now you you are beating a 6/12 game at the commerce. Big F-ing deal. In your posts you are complaing about your aces getting cracked in a 1/2 game. Your mind is in the gutter. You seem like a loser/low life so be happy with your 13$/hr job. I say stick with that because if you play 5/10 online with your 3k bankroll I give you 1 month before you're broke and posting an online is rigged post. This is good advice for you, listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that. You're a great person. I appreciate your help. I'm sure you will go far in life.

[DemonDeac]

christ man. stop taking things so personal. do ur parents not love you or something?

you're like Terrell Owens, and dont get me started on him....

just keep playing cards and try and have fun

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Insulting people is just as bad as scamming them.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, its not. Do you see why? You are undeserving of the knowledge that these forums contain.

[ QUOTE ]

christ man. stop taking things so personal. do ur parents not love you or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

If people would stop attacking me, I wouldn't have to think they were getting personal.

[ QUOTE ]

just keep playing cards and try and have fun

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, sincerely. I will definitely do that.

[LIRob23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Insulting people is just as bad as scamming them.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, its not. Do you see why? And I get no thrill out of it, however, because I know people who have been victims of scamming jackasses like you, I just want to make it clear that you are a jackass, and you I sincerely hope that no one else in this forum gives you any kind of useful advice. You post some kind of proof that you've paid restitution to your victims, than maybe. Other than that, you are undeserving of the knowledge that these forums contain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look. You don't know the circumstances behind what was going on in my life at the time. My fiance, who is a genuinely good person, was at risk of being hurt if I didn't come up with some of that money. She did not deserve to get hurt, so I did the only thing I could do to make sure that she was not affected by my problem.

So, if that means that some rich a-hole has to go a few months without a merchandise card, I'm perfectly fine with that. I would rather see him hurt for a few months than see my fiance hurt for more than a second. Call me a jackass all you want.

But if you think that insulting another human being isn't on the same level, than I truly feel bad for you.

You have no right to insult me, or anyone else for that matter. If you'll notice, I have not once insulted or attacked any one on this board. I have been nothing if not patient and appreciative of helpful advice.

If you knew me and my situation, I guarantee you would not think the way you do of me. I do not have to "prove" anything to you. All I have to do is look at the positive people who proudly call themselves my friends, and consider me to be family.

[ QUOTE ]
You are a nobody. You obviously are uneducated, since you are estatic about your 13$/hr job as a secretary (1 step above flipping burgers). You also are a lowlife, since you have no friends (except for those that are drug addicts pretending to like you so they can take what little money you have). You also scammed people out of money to support your sorry exsitence, you're worse then Klepton stealing peoples bikes.

As for me, I'm better then you Mike. Along with everyone else who responded to your post. I actually want you to deposit 3k right now onto partypoker and start playing 5/10.
Do it Mike, you are a great player it will be easy. You are going to be rich man.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I could be your friend. I am sure you would fill my life with sunlight each and every day. God, you're awesome.

[Cosimo]

Note that many people come to these boards and say "I'm thinking of going pro, what do you guys think?" It happens once a day or so. I'm sure a lot more than that show up, but it's normally only one post a day that generates this much interest.

So, yeah, we see people "like you" all the time. The truth is, you think you're ready, but you're not. We're not trying to hurt you, insult you, put you down, or make ourselves feel better. This board has given us a lot, and we're trying to give a bit back. Help you out.

And usually what the new posters need is a kick in the ass.

So when you get kicked in the ass, you can either (1) ask for clarification, or (2) ignore it, write us off as rude, and go on with your life as it was before you got here. Poker is profitable for us because of people in group 2. We are thankful, every day, for people whose egos are too big to handle criticism.

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me, what did you have to gain by posting this?

[/ QUOTE ]

The hope is that you'll get the message. Evidently not. Your response to criticism is "I did nothing wrong!" Bzzzt. Sorry, buddy, you're in group 2.

[ QUOTE ]
Insulting people is just as bad as scamming them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The truth is always a good defense against charges of slander. The truth is, there are a lot of red flags in what you've said. It might feel insulting to you to hear it, but it is true. Do you wish to ask for clarification?

[ QUOTE ]
As for the other half, you have quite obviously taken what I have said out of context. Perhaps you should apply for a position with Fox News. I think you'd do well there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note what you are doing here is called "mirroring." Most people do this without knowing it. Someone insults you, you insult them back. It is replying in kind. Since we, here, are knowledgeable about poker and the typical failings of new posters with overinflated senses of their poker skills, we agree with all of those red flags. Maybe he was a bit harsh (but again it usually takes a swift kick in the butt for some guys to get it), but it was the truth. And now you insult him for it. You have forsaken the moral high ground in this arguement, so we will, of course, not respect you for that. Show some self control in your own posting. If you're heated when you hit that 'Submit' button, cool down for a while. Go have a cup of coffee. Come back when you're cool, read the post over again, and edit it.

Cuz right now, you're solidly in Group 2.

[LIRob23]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL, fiance are you for real man. She would be better off dead then hanging around your sorry ass. I feel sorry for her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Look. You don't know the circumstances behind what was going on in my life at the time. My fiance, who is a genuinely good person, was at risk of being hurt if I didn't come up with some of that money.

[/ QUOTE ]

And from your earlier post: [ QUOTE ]
So, I scammed people (business owners who could afford it - not justifying it - but, they could). I got about $700 from the scam, took it all to the casino

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, back in my day, kids were at least smart enough to keep some consistency between their lies.

[bdohaney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Insulting people is just as bad as scamming them.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, its not. Do you see why? And I get no thrill out of it, however, because I know people who have been victims of scamming jackasses like you, I just want to make it clear that you are a jackass, and you I sincerely hope that no one else in this forum gives you any kind of useful advice. You post some kind of proof that you've paid restitution to your victims, than maybe. Other than that, you are undeserving of the knowledge that these forums contain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look. You don't know the circumstances behind what was going on in my life at the time. My fiance, who is a genuinely good person, was at risk of being hurt if I didn't come up with some of that money. She did not deserve to get hurt, so I did the only thing I could do to make sure that she was not affected by my problem.

So, if that means that some rich a-hole has to go a few months without a merchandise card, I'm perfectly fine with that. I would rather see him hurt for a few months than see my fiance hurt for more than a second. Call me a jackass all you want.

But if you think that insulting another human being isn't on the same level, than I truly feel bad for you.

You have no right to insult me, or anyone else for that matter. If you'll notice, I have not once insulted or attacked any one on this board. I have been nothing if not patient and appreciative of helpful advice.

If you knew me and my situation, I guarantee you would not think the way you do of me. I do not have to "prove" anything to you. All I have to do is look at the positive people who proudly call themselves my friends, and consider me to be family.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I am not trying to be a total donkey here or anything, but... You are a criminal. The post of the guy listing all of the red flags? He was right. You may have read Sklansky's books, but if you don't know what BB means, then you weren't paying very much attention. If your fiancee matters so much to you, then why did you continue to get yourself deeper in debt? All I know is that it sounds like you are in for a long and bumpy ride. And that you should probably get out now while you still can.

[LImitPlayer]

You will get your ass handed to you if you play the Party 5-10 tables to start.

Some of the comments you have made made me think you are not ready for that level of play. You have been playing for 6 months and are complaining about someone cracking your AA when they are coldcalling bottom pair for 2 bets on each street.

The competition online is much tougher than live.
The Party .50-1.00 and $1-2 games play like live 6-12 and 9-18 games

[LIRob23]

[ QUOTE ]
Note that many people come to these boards and say "I'm thinking of going pro, what do you guys think?" It happens once a day or so. I'm sure a lot more than that show up, but it's normally only one post a day that generates this much interest.

So, yeah, we see people "like you" all the time. The truth is, you think you're ready, but you're not. We're not trying to hurt you, insult you, put you down, or make ourselves feel better. This board has given us a lot, and we're trying to give a bit back. Help you out.

And usually what the new posters need is a kick in the ass.

So when you get kicked in the ass, you can either (1) ask for clarification, or (2) ignore it, write us off as rude, and go on with your life as it was before you got here. Poker is profitable for us because of people in group 2. We are thankful, every day, for people whose egos are too big to handle criticism.

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me, what did you have to gain by posting this?

[/ QUOTE ]

The hope is that you'll get the message. Evidently not. Your response to criticism is "I did nothing wrong!" Bzzzt. Sorry, buddy, you're in group 2.

[ QUOTE ]
Insulting people is just as bad as scamming them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The truth is always a good defense against charges of slander. The truth is, there are a lot of red flags in what you've said. It might feel insulting to you to hear it, but it is true. Do you wish to ask for clarification?

[ QUOTE ]
As for the other half, you have quite obviously taken what I have said out of context. Perhaps you should apply for a position with Fox News. I think you'd do well there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note what you are doing here is called "mirroring." Most people do this without knowing it. Someone insults you, you insult them back. It is replying in kind. Since we, here, are knowledgeable about poker and the typical failings of new posters with overinflated senses of their poker skills, we agree with all of those red flags. Maybe he was a bit harsh (but again it usually takes a swift kick in the butt for some guys to get it), but it was the truth. And now you insult him for it. You have forsaken the moral high ground in this arguement, so we will, of course, not respect you for that. Show some self control in your own posting. If you're heated when you hit that 'Submit' button, cool down for a while. Go have a cup of coffee. Come back when you're cool, read the post over again, and edit it.

Cuz right now, you're solidly in Group 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cosimo. I thank you for your relaxing tone, and your wisdom. I sincerely appreciate what you have said, and will honestly take it into consideration.

However, I think you have mistaken me.

When I suggested that that person should apply for a position with Fox News, I was serious. People who are employed at Fox News make a lot of money, and they all are masters of taking other people's words out of context and twisting them to make people think something else.

If that person shares those qualities, he may have an excellent career on his/her hands. I honestly think he/she should apply for that position.

I know you may still think I am being sarcastic, but I assure you that I am not. While I have a, shall we say "dislike" for the Fox News channel, I still recognize that the people who work there make a lot of money doing what they do.

I don't see how that is insulting.

Furthermore, I do not feel insulted when someone says something like "You're probably not as good as you think you are. Newcomers to the game typically feel like they are poker gods due to a week-long run." Even people saying that I should not go pro, and that I should just play for fun.

I don't mind those comments. I actually agree with them. However, it seems as if those are the only constructive comments being made, with few exceptions.

What am I to do? Allow people to attack me, disrespect me, and say nasty things to me without any retort?

I'm sorry if you think that I should just sit back and allow people to piss all over me. That's just not how I am.

But I appreciate your input.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look. You don't know the circumstances behind what was going on in my life at the time. My fiance, who is a genuinely good person, was at risk of being hurt if I didn't come up with some of that money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was completely obvious that I needed more than $700. I guess not.

I NEEDED MORE THAN $700 TO HELP MY FIANCE.

Was that clear? Thanks for calling me a liar, though. I appreciate it.

And from your earlier post: [ QUOTE ]
So, I scammed people (business owners who could afford it - not justifying it - but, they could). I got about $700 from the scam, took it all to the casino

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, back in my day, kids were at least smart enough to keep some consistency between their lies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious that I needed more than $700. I guess not.

I NEEDED MORE THAN $700 TO STOP MY FIANCE FROM GETTING PHYSICALLY HURT.

I hope that's clear now. But thanks for calling me a liar. I appreciate that.

[bernie]

If you don't know the answer and reasoning for this question
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of bankroll should I have for playing 6/12 games on a regular basis?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention why a 6-12 (if it's limit) game isn't a good game to go 'pro' with, there is likely alot more you don't know about and you're far from ready to go 'pro'. If you read or studied enough, you'd know the answers to these questions.

b

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't know the answer and reasoning for this question
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of bankroll should I have for playing 6/12 games on a regular basis?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention why a 6-12 (if it's limit) game isn't a good game to go 'pro' with, there is likely alot more you don't know about and you're far from ready to go 'pro'. If you read or studied enough, you'd know the answers to these questions.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. There is no need to be accusatory or rude. I'm asking nicely for help, not inviting jerks in to stomp all over my dreams.

But thanks for the input.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All I know is that it sounds like you are in for a long and bumpy ride. And that you should probably get out now while you still can.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all I was trying to say, but for some reason your ignorance makes me want to insult you over and over again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm glad you're such a better person than I am.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
After reading your posts, I think that you are not ready to turn pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading his posts so far, I don't think he was serious anyways.

Nice troll thread though.

b

[DemonDeac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After reading your posts, I think that you are not ready to turn pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading his posts so far, I don't think he was serious anyways.

Nice troll thread though.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

i am enjoying his sarcasm. its pretty funny.

[LImitPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
As for whether or not live play is easier than online play, well, if the way people play at these sites for fake money is any indication of how horrible they play for real money, I'll be making a lot more than $150/hour online.

For example...I have been on vacation at my mother's house in southern Florida since last Tuesday. I started playing free games on jimfeistpoker.com (a Canadian site) with just $1,000 starting money. I have been playing an average of about 3 hours per day, and am already up over $8,000, playing 5/10 games. That number would be higher, but people there raise aggressively with the crap-end of a 2 8 8 flop (meaning they have a deuce in hand). That kind of stuff throws me off. Perhaps they are just playing like retards because it is free to do so. I would like to think that they are just like me, trying to learn how to play real poker, and practicing for the real money games.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you in for a wakeup call. Play money is nothing like real money.

Just because you see everyone playing like fools at play money, you think real money plays this way?

When is the last time you saw it folded around to the blinds in live play at the limits you mentioned? This happens a couple of times tops each night, if at all

Get ready for this happening 4-5 times an orbit at the Party 5-10.

Where you are used to seeing 5-8 people seeing a flop in live play, the opposite is true in online play at the 5-10
Quite often it is a blind battle and very rarely will you see a flop with more than 2-3 people.

If you start at the 5-10 you are about to jump into shark inversted waters filled with players grininding out profits playing 4-8 tables at a time. They will jump for joy when they see you coming and you will more thna likely be added to the buddy list.

PS.

Can I know your screenname?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for whether or not live play is easier than online play, well, if the way people play at these sites for fake money is any indication of how horrible they play for real money, I'll be making a lot more than $150/hour online.

For example...I have been on vacation at my mother's house in southern Florida since last Tuesday. I started playing free games on jimfeistpoker.com (a Canadian site) with just $1,000 starting money. I have been playing an average of about 3 hours per day, and am already up over $8,000, playing 5/10 games. That number would be higher, but people there raise aggressively with the crap-end of a 2 8 8 flop (meaning they have a deuce in hand). That kind of stuff throws me off. Perhaps they are just playing like retards because it is free to do so. I would like to think that they are just like me, trying to learn how to play real poker, and practicing for the real money games.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you in for a wakeup call. Play money is nothing like real money.

Just because you see everyone playing like fools at play money, you think real money plays this way?

When is the last time you saw it folded around to the blinds in live play at the limits you mentioned? This happens a couple of times tops each night, if at all

Get ready for this happening 4-5 times an orbit at the Party 5-10.

Where you are used to seeing 5-8 people seeing a flop in live play, the opposite is true in online play at the 5-10
Quite often it is a blind battle and very rarely will you see a flop with more than 2-3 people.

If you start at the 5-10 you are about to jump into shark inversted waters filled with players grininding out profits playing 4-8 tables at a time. They will jump for joy when they see you coming and you will more thna likely be added to the buddy list.

PS.

Can I know your screenname?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to have to half thank you for this post. This is the kind of information that I was originally looking for. Although you seem to have some sick obsession with insulting me, you offered some useful information at the same time.

And, just for the sake of clarification, I believe that I was more than clear in stating that I have no idea if playing for real money online was anything like playing for fake money. It seemed obvious to me that there wouldn't be as many idiots around, raising with 10 3 off-suit and similar hands EVERY SINGLE HAND. But I was under the impression that I might see approximately 25% of that kind of play.

As for becoming food for sharks in a 5/10 game, I assure you that I do not play that badly. I am actually a very tight, aggressive player who fully understands most of what I have read in Sklansky's books. I have studied "SSHE" several times, and even bring it with me to the casino and read it while waiting for a table or eating lunch/dinner. I am not as -small- a fish as you apparently think I am.

[Seth Money]

Scotch Scotch Scotch, I love Scotch.

Stay Classy San Diego

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After reading your posts, I think that you are not ready to turn pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading his posts so far, I don't think he was serious anyways.

Nice troll thread though.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Please poimt out the posts where it seemed as if I wasn't serious, so I can clarify what I meant.

Or perhaps you're not interested in clarification. Perhaps your only motive for posting this was to get a rise out of and insult me.

Be constructive and positive, and so will I.

[LIRob23]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok milk the joke is over you can stop pretending to be serious now. Insulting you did make my day at work go by faster though. Thanks alot, you clown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I see. Thanks for revealing yourself.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Subject: Please help, need advice (long)

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop listening to ICP. This is more important than any poker advice I could give you.

[OrangeKing]

I will say a few things that have been kind of brushed past in this thread, or said in the midst of insults and ignored. Please understand, Milenko, that I'm just trying to help you out a bit by saying what I'm saying - you may well be a very good poker player, but this advice is probably worthwhile.


1) You will not make $150/hr playing 6/12. You will not make $100/hr, or $50, or probably (based on the limited information you gave us) even $25/hr.

When we talk about winrates here, we talk in terms of BB/100 - or big bets per 100 hands. In other words, we talk about the number of big bets ($12 bets in your case) that we can win on average in 100 hands. In a B&M casino, you'll probably get 30-35 hands in each hour; for the sake of simplicity, we'll say it takes 3 hours to get 100 hands in. For you to make $450 in 3 hours, you'd have to make about 38 BB/100.

Sadly, this sort of winrate is impossible, and it isn't even close. A player who is crushing a .5/1 table online might make 4 BB/100. And as the limits go up, this number goes down. But if you could be a great 6/12 player and make 4 BB/100, you'd still only be making $48 every 100 hands - or $16 an hour.

You are looking at short term results and assuming they will generally hold up for you. This is a very dangerous assumption to be making.

2) One thing that needs to be understood is just how different the online games are to the ones in the casino you've played in. They are filled with much tougher players at similar limits, so much so that your 6/12 game is probably equivalent in difficulty to a 1/2 table on PartyPoker (and depending on what your 6/12 table is like, maybe even a .5/1 game). If you jumped into a 5/10 game online, you would likely be crushed by the players at that level.

3) Possibly the biggest red flag was your statement about having trouble with the very loose players at the lower limit games. Quite frankly, if these players are frustrating you, you're not ready to be playing against better competition. Our money is made off of players who are making mistakes, not ones who are playing correctly. The more mistakes the better, and nobody makes more mistakes than the super-loose fish that populate the 2/4 and 3/6 games in your local casino.


I hope you take all of this into consideration and decide that you're not ready to make poker a significant part of your income right now. If not, and you do decide to, best of luck.

[Neal_Schon]

Have you considered going back in time and becoming an 80s rock god?

I highly recommend it.

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I play poker is because I am good at it

[/ QUOTE ]

*cries*

[EStreet20]

[ QUOTE ]
As for whether or not live play is easier than online play, well, if the way people play at these sites for fake money is any indication of how horrible they play for real money,

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm wrong, though. I don't know

[/ QUOTE ]

You are.

[ QUOTE ]
It would be nice if everybody stopped attacking me and helped me out

[/ QUOTE ]

No one's attacking you. We are trying to help you out, but don't ask for honest opinions and then argue with them. I (and many others who play more than I do) play more hands in a month, or some players in a week, than you have in your entire life and know that your short term winrate is nothing like your true winrate. My only advice to you wass to familiarize yourself with the game more and that you are not good enough to go pro right now. Read more threads about live vs online play and you'll see statements that an average 10/20 live game is comparable to or weaker than a 2/4 or 3/6 game online, which I can definately attest too. So again, good luck but you need to learn to play. If you disagree, and this isn't a pissing contest but I just want to prove a point, create a partypoker account and start playing. Post your results and we'll see how it worked out.

Later,
Matt

[EStreet20]

[ QUOTE ]
have studied "SSHE" several times

[/ QUOTE ]

And you couldn't figure oput that BB meant Big Bet. Interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
I will say a few things that have been kind of brushed past in this thread, or said in the midst of insults and ignored. Please understand, Milenko, that I'm just trying to help you out a bit by saying what I'm saying - you may well be a very good poker player, but this advice is probably worthwhile.


1) You will not make $150/hr playing 6/12. You will not make $100/hr, or $50, or probably (based on the limited information you gave us) even $25/hr.

When we talk about winrates here, we talk in terms of BB/100 - or big bets per 100 hands. In other words, we talk about the number of big bets ($12 bets in your case) that we can win on average in 100 hands. In a B&M casino, you'll probably get 30-35 hands in each hour; for the sake of simplicity, we'll say it takes 3 hours to get 100 hands in. For you to make $450 in 3 hours, you'd have to make about 38 BB/100.

Sadly, this sort of winrate is impossible, and it isn't even close. A player who is crushing a .5/1 table online might make 4 BB/100. And as the limits go up, this number goes down. But if you could be a great 6/12 player and make 4 BB/100, you'd still only be making $48 every 100 hands - or $16 an hour.

You are looking at short term results and assuming they will generally hold up for you. This is a very dangerous assumption to be making.

2) One thing that needs to be understood is just how different the online games are to the ones in the casino you've played in. They are filled with much tougher players at similar limits, so much so that your 6/12 game is probably equivalent in difficulty to a 1/2 table on PartyPoker (and depending on what your 6/12 table is like, maybe even a .5/1 game). If you jumped into a 5/10 game online, you would likely be crushed by the players at that level.

3) Possibly the biggest red flag was your statement about having trouble with the very loose players at the lower limit games. Quite frankly, if these players are frustrating you, you're not ready to be playing against better competition. Our money is made off of players who are making mistakes, not ones who are playing correctly. The more mistakes the better, and nobody makes more mistakes than the super-loose fish that populate the 2/4 and 3/6 games in your local casino.


I hope you take all of this into consideration and decide that you're not ready to make poker a significant part of your income right now. If not, and you do decide to, best of luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for explaining the big bets per 100 hands thing.

I am not "bragging" about my abilities, or saying that I think I am a poker "god" when I say that I truly was making $150 (roughly) per hour. I'm not saying that I've been playing a long time, but when I did win at 6/12 and 9/18, I typically won about $150 an hour. I'm not just talking one or two nights, or even one or two weeks doing this. If I am having a good night where people aren't catching miracle cards every hand, I make $150 an hour playing 6/12 and 9/18.

Let me give you an example of a night that I lost. I came to play 6/12, sat at a table, won some, lost some, won some, lost some, etc. So I decided to switch tables.

I sat down at the next available 6/12 table, which happened to have this guy with barely any teeth, a big smile, and a gigantic stack of chips. He had around $1,000 in nice little racks, stacked up in front of him.

The guy was playing EVERY single hand, raising pre-flop, raising and raising and raising. Amazingly, he ALWAYS won. If he put his chips on the table, they came back. Every time.

Either he was cheating, which I doubt in Commerce, as they are reputed to have the best security in the area, or he was on an insane luck streak. Either way, it was impossible for me to win.

When stuff like that happens, you bet your butt that I get a little upset. Sklansky's advice goes right down the drain in those situations. The idea that I would love to play this guy all day, every day is irrelevant when he continually catches miracle cards and wipes me out.

And that's all I see at the lower stakes. Not from the same person every time, of course. But when ten people see a flop, only two of which actually should be in the hand, at least one out of the other 8 is bound to hit their crappy cards.

It would be different if there were only a few maniacs at the table. I've witnessed that. Those are the tables I make the money at. I search for those tables. Me and the other good players simply take turns collecting the crappy players' chips. It's beautiful.

I'm not saying "you're wrong and I'm right." The truth is, I don't know anything more than what I've seen so far. Ever heard the expression "we are the sum of our experiences?" That's me. I have gone to a casino on several occasions with $300 (sometimes less), played 6/12 and 9/18 for about 6 or 7 hours, and come home with $900-1,000 in my pocket. Maybe that's deceptive, but it definitely happened on more than a few occasions.

And that is why I find it hard to understand what you are saying.

But I will definitely take what you have said into consideration, and will probably start out at the 0.5/1 games online until I have gained some experience.

I honestly appreciate everything you said. It may seem as if I am just complaining about a few certain things, but believe me, I read your post several times, and truly appreciate it in its entirety.

[mdeck]

Ohhh, I see what you're saying. The days when it's "impossible" for you to win don't count because it deflates your happy self-delusion. I get it now...

[ QUOTE ]
Ohhh, I see what you're saying. The days when it's "impossible" for you to win don't count because it deflates your happy self-delusion. I get it now...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, how very constructive and witty of you.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks again for all the advice, guys. I just have a few questions, and a few responses.

First off, what the heck does "BB" stand for? Big Blind? I'm not sure what people are talking about when they are saying stuff like "I lost 200 BB" or "I'm winning 1.92 BB/100." Sorry if I'm asking a question you all see here fifty times a day, but I'm new to online poker chat jargon. Thanks in advance for your patience, understanding, and help.

Second...I read that "My failure as a poker pro" thread, and it sounds a tiny bit like what happened to me at first. I was really stupid and took everything I had to the casino and lost it all a couple times. I never moved up to compensate, never played online, and only entered one tournament before I realized I should not be playing in tournaments. And it only cost me $130.

I did do stupid crap like scam people for money to get a bankroll. I actually went on ebay and sold "merchandise cards" that didn't exist for around $200 each. I definitely overdrafted my bank account (which actually got charged off). I am in debt WAY over my eyeballs.

However, the reason I started doing all this is because a guy that I had just met (who turned out to be a coke addict) scammed me out of around $2,000 within a month. He was a friend of mine for about 6 months before he did this, and was apparently just setting me up the whole time.

So, he put me in a position where I NEEDED money, real bad. Unfortunately, I became unemployed at about the same time he scammed me, so I had no source of reliable income. To top it all off, I live in Los Angeles, where worth-while jobs can be very difficult to come by.

So, I scammed people (business owners who could afford it - not justifying it - but, they could). I got about $700 from the scam, took it all to the casino, and had a two-week long run. I was able to pay off about $1,000 worth of the damage that my "friend" had caused. I still owe about $2,000, due to interest, bounced checks, and whatever. I am actually facing criminal charges for a few $20 - $30 checks I wrote just after he took the money (which is ridiculous to me, because I had every intention of honoring those tiny checks, but was unable to because my "friend" never payed me back).

I am now taking a break from cash games, but keeping sharp at the play-money games on some online sites. I have a job as an administrative assistant at a great company through a temp agency. I am making $13.42/hour, which is great for me.

My plan, after long hours of conversations/contemplations and reading a ton of posts here at 2+2 is to save a little money every month until I have about $3,000 saved up for poker. Then, I will start playing poker online, at the level I feel comfortable with (5/10, 6/12), and just play whenever I have free time.

If my bankroll disappears with that plan, I will know that poker is not for me. I will quit and chalk it up as a neat experience. Like I said before, I am not really a "gambler." The crazy things I mentioned doing were done in an extreme situation. I was desparate at that time. I would have done almost anything to make money, and poker just happened to be the idea of the moment.

Now that my life is more stable, I truly feel that I can approach this thing with a level head and be smart about it. I have decided that I do NOT want to go pro, but I would like to see if I can make some extra money on the side to help me finance some fun in my life. I am okay with the idea that I might not be able to do this, but I am eager to see if it works out.

I am sure that some of the things I have done will shock some of you, and some of you might even think that I should stop playing poker all together. I appreciate your input, but would just like to reaffirm the fact that I do NOT have an addictive personality. I have even heard people tell me that I quit too soon, when my chips are up, that I should stay and "ride the wave." I know when to stop, and very rarely find myself on "tilt." I am perfectly happy with simply doubling up and leaving (most of the time). If I notice my chip stack dwindling after a few hours of winning, I will stop and go home.

I would appreciate any and all input concerning this long post. I certainly have appreciated the input so far. Thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to respond to a couple of these:

1 - [ QUOTE ]
First off, what the heck does "BB" stand for?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've truly studied the 2+2 books you claim to have, you'd know this. This is not a good sign.

2 - [ QUOTE ]
I never moved up to compensate

[/ QUOTE ]

Compensate for what? Losing money? Moving up to try to win back losses is a sign of a gambler with no understanding of what he's doing. Compensate for the bad players (i.e. "they play so bad I can't win and I need to play against better players who I can read and who will respect my bets/raises")? This is the sign of a bad poker player who doesn't understand where the money comes from - it comes from players making mistakes. Players who call your AA with K3. Not from players who fold AQ to your AA.

3 - [ QUOTE ]
I am now taking a break from cash games, but keeping sharp at the play-money games on some online sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is like saying "I'm taking a break from playing Major League Baseball, but I'm keeping sharp by hitting a baseball off a tee." It's two completely different games. Unless you need to practice clicking a button, play money games are worthless for practice.

4 - [ QUOTE ]
I will start playing poker online, at the level I feel comfortable with (5/10, 6/12), and just play whenever I have free time

[/ QUOTE ]

You will lose all of your money following this plan. It may take a while, due to the small number of hours you'll play, the fact that you're likely to quit while you're ahead, and plain old variance. But I guarantee you will not beat these games at your current skill level/knowledge/outlook/attitude.

5 - [ QUOTE ]
I know when to stop, and very rarely find myself on "tilt." I am perfectly happy with simply doubling up and leaving (most of the time). If I notice my chip stack dwindling after a few hours of winning, I will stop and go home.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just completely wrong. You do not look to "double up and leave most of the time". You do not leave if you "notice your (my) chip stack dwindling". These are results-oriented actions that good players don't take. You can't control the cards, all you can control is your play. If you play good, stay. If you play bad, leave.

Last recommendation - take some of your money, build a bankroll by bonus whoring (look in the internet forum for instructions on how to build a bankroll), play low limits online (.5/1) - no I'm not kidding - you'll probably lose there at first too, post hands in the micro-stakes forum, respond to other hands with your own advice, and be prepared to be wrong a lot. Finally, get some humility. There are hundreds of players here who would kick your ass at the poker table without even trying, and many of them will actually help you if you let them, but being argumentative is the first step on the road to the ignore list.

(gotta go, no time to preview, sorry for any mistakes)

[mdeck]

[ QUOTE ]


Wow, how very constructive and witty of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay how about this instead of arguing endlessly against people with more Poker experience than you, take $500 and start playing the .50/1 tables and work your way up. It's clear that you aren't going to listen to anyone here. Feel free to learn the hard way.

[punter11235]

From your description its rather obvious that you are poker newbie and you have no knowledge and experience to become a pro.
Start another job and just treat poker like a hobby until you have few months of winning experience. Many people here played sucesfully for moths (years) before becoming pros.
I for example won at poker like 3xyear avg salary in my country before deciding to go pro (and I am still a student and have other options if I couldnt make it as a pro).
You really need months of experience to be sure (or rather to strongly suspect) that you have a chance as a pro. Your winning might be just a lucky streak. Ok, its still possible that you have some talent and potential to become good player but you certainly are not now.
Get a job. Get money and get nice hobby which poker is. That's the best you can do.

Best wishes

[jman220]

Lol, Guys, clearly this guy has a system to beat the 6/12 for money that the rest of us only dream of. I mean, sure, our collective millions of hands of experience, plus the knowledge of several math geniuses who post on this forum, tell us its impossible to sustain the win rates he describes, but hey, he obviously has a system, and knows something the rest of us don't. You have nothing to learn from these boards Milenko, you are better than everyone, not even the pros like El Diablo/Schneids/etc. can top your win rate. $150 an hour at 6/12 live. That is incredible. You should write a book.

Oh, and by the way: [ QUOTE ]
When stuff like that happens, you bet your butt that I get a little upset. Sklansky's advice goes right down the drain in those situations.

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #8 [ QUOTE ]
But when ten people see a flop, only two of which actually should be in the hand, at least one out of the other 8 is bound to hit their crappy cards.

[/ QUOTE ] Red Flag #9.

Edit: Its interesting, but Milenko proves exactly why pros writing books will never harm poker. For every person who reads a book and improves, there have to be at least five like Milenko who read/skim, vastly misunderstand what they have read, misapply the theories, but are filled with such confidence after a few short term victories (forgetting of course their losses), that they lose far more than they ever would have in the first place had they not read the book. It must give the illusion of beatability to a game that, for many of them, will never truly be beatable.

[arkady]

jman,

by far the best reply. cracked me up and it's just damn true.

A good friend once told me, "Anybody else, I'd say what's gonna happen to you would be a lesson to you. Only you're gonna need more than one lesson. And you're gonna get more than one lesson."

Best gimmick account ever.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Best gimmick account ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have obviously never seen a post by commodus.

[MicroBob]

This has certainly been an amusing little thread (that I skimmed through parts of admittedly...it's kinda long afterall).


to milenko if he is indeed serious in these posts (some of this discussion is so ludicrous that one does suspect it might not be on the up-and-up):


$150/hour is not possible in the long-run on 9/18.
$20/hour is. Maybe $30-$35 for really superior players.


Losing streaks happen. Bad players draw out on you all the time. That happens too.
Even the best pros will probably only win in 2/3 of their sessions it has been estimated.
That means you can expect to lose in 33-40% of your sessions most likely (IF you are actually a winning player...and that's a big IF).


So when you are calculating your hourly-rate you are not allowed to just discount the times you lost and only look at those times you won.


For 1BB-2BB/hr you might have a deviation of 10 per hour.
That means that one hour you will win 10BB's...and the next hour you will lose 9BB's. And so on and so on and it will happen over and over again.

After a stretch of 30k hands or so you start to get an idea of what kind of win-rate you might have at a given limit because you are at least beginning to get through some of those peaks and valleys and find out where you really stand.


30k hands would be about 300 hours playing in a live casino...and in the past 6 months I doubt you have played that much yet.
So you probably don't even know whether you are a winning player or not.

--------------------------------

You most obviously have absolutely no grasp of the 'long-run' and the kind of variance that is inherent in poker.
You complain about the times that you lose. This happens to every single player anywhere and everywhere. Over and over again.


--------------------------------


I too am curious how it would be possible to have read SSHE and not know what a BB is.


-----------------------------


I have played professionally (mostly online) for a little over a year now. I like it.

I have been asked by several aspiring players via threads like these and via private-messages whether I think they have a shot at making it as a pro (playing full-time for income) or whether I think they are out of their mind.
I am very honest in my assessment with those who ask the question. I am not afraid to tell someone "go of it. Based on what you have told me I think you can definitely do it."

Obviously I'll also go the other way and will not be bashful about telling someone that they shouldn't do it or that their hunch is correct that they probably aren't QUITE ready yet but they could get there in the future if they keep working on it.

Obviously I'm just stating my opinion and it's not necessarily gospel...but I believe I'm a pretty good judge on these matters.


I know you've gotten quite defensive about some of the replies you've received in this thread and I have no reason to believe that this won't happen again..but I'm going to tell you anyway.

Based on what I have read there is absolutely no way you would succeed as a pro.
In fact, you are possibly the least-qualified candidate to do this of ALL the "should I go pro?" posters on these forums (of the one's I have seen anyway).

You lack some VERY basic knowledge of the game and what you need to do in order to succeed.
We're not talking about the slightly more complex stuff here that I think you should know also....just the REALLY basic stuff.

You don't understand variance...you have no idea what kind of win-rate is realistic at a given limit...you seem only moderately willing to listen to some of the solid advice given to you in this thread.
I think I skimmed past something that read along the lines of a 'double-up and then quit to lock-up my victory' type of philosophy which is also especially bad.


You won't believe this either most likely because you'll say "How can you know that if you have never even seen me play?"
....but..... there is almost zero chance that your actual play of your poker-hands is as good as you think it is.
and I highly doubt that you are a long-term winner at this game in the first place.
Almost every long-term winning player who has posted in this thread is nodding in agreement right now about the idea that there is no way that this guy actually is even a winning player.
Think about that. All these long-term winners...and we can see it from a zillion miles away.

You might think we don't know what the hell we're doing...we're all just stuck up snobs who think we know everything...perhaps you are the exception to this rule...etc etc.
Well...everyone else thinks they are the exception too.

It's up to you to decide whether you want to open your mind to the possibility that some of the long-term winners here REALLY DO know what the hell they're talking about when they speculate that you probably aren't a long-term winner in the first place and that your sample-size regarding the number of hands you have played is probably REALLY small.


But even if you are good enough to beat the games...your complete lack of understanding regarding some really basic concepts makes you an incredibly bad candidate to consider playing this game professionally as things stand now.

Your stubborness on some of these issues leads me to believe that you will never be good enough to play this game full-time for income
(but I'm not 100% certain of that part...there have been a couple others on these forums who have impressed me in their ability to drop their total stubborness, listen a bit more, learn, and actually pull it off)

[jman220]

Microbob,
That was a great post, articulated what we've all been saying and hit all the points. Too bad he's gone, http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3169005&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1

He might just have listened to you.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
As for becoming food for sharks in a 5/10 game, I assure you that I do not play that badly. I am actually a very tight, aggressive player who fully understands most of what I have read in Sklansky's books. I have studied "SSHE" several times, and even bring it with me to the casino and read it while waiting for a table or eating lunch/dinner. I am not as -small- a fish as you apparently think I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just when I thought that this thread couldn't get any more amusing...

[MicroBob]

Oh well. Didn't see that.

He might be lurking anyway.

It's possible other posters/lurkers might benefit from it more anyway.