Selfishness

I define the word so:

Concerned ultimately with one self

Does any one think a person can choose to do something that is not selfish?

Example: Joe gives money to charity, why?

because he wanted to help other people
because he thinks it's the right thing to do (alternate: because it makes him feel good)
because he believes he should do the right thing
because he believes doing the right thing will bring him closer to god

Ultimately, he just did it so he could get closer to god

[Scotch78]

According to your definition, yes it's pretty much impossible for a self-aware individual to act non-selfishly. However, according to your definition, selfishness also sheds the social stigma normally associated with it.

Scott

[The Dude]

This question is one I heard quite a bit going through college, with some variation in verbiage. In my business and economics classes we used the term "self-interest," and related it to the decisions in business. In philosophy both "selfishness" and "self-interest" were used, and this discussion was brought up in the section on ethical approaches.

The short answer is 'definately yes.' The long answer requires a lot of discussion and heavy lifting, but there really is no logical contradiction to a "selfless act." Well, none that any but true skeptics would accept.

[Brainwalter]

Of course it's possible. A man gives up his seat on the lifeboat of a sinking ship to a woman with a baby.

Edit: Make him an atheist if you will.

[AlphaWice]

no, if one defines someones actions to be in their self interest.

Example. A man gives up his seat on a lifeboat for a woman with a baby. But then he wanted to give up his seat?

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
But then he wanted to give up his seat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we can define selfishness as simply the act of doing what a person wants to do. What determines if a person is selfish is WHAT they want to do.

If a dying atheist wants to give up his seat on a lifeboat to a woman with a baby, that reflects a character that is unselfish. If I want to donate all my money to charity and join the Peace Corps, I will undoubtedly find it rewarding, challenging, and feel good about making a difference in the world. So I definitely benefit, and it could be argued that I am acting in my own self-interest. But I am still very different from the person that wants to chain Chinese children to machines so they can make an additional .3% profit on Wal-Mart t-shirts.

If the argument being made is that people only do what they want to, that is a much stronger argument. (I.E. I may not WANT to pay taxes, but I want to do that more than I want to go to jail.) However, interpreting that as "selfish" behavior is specious.

Edit: If it's not obvious, I am not disputing the OP's definition of "selfish" (only the conclusion he drew from it). A person can both benefit and do what they want to do, but still be "ultimately" concerned with others. I see no contradiction here. Again, WHAT they want to do determines the focus of their ultimate concern.

[snowden719]

It seems clear that a person can be unselfish under the defenition given by the OP, OP says that X is selfish if he is ultimately concerened aobut himself. Therefore, for X's action to be selfish X's reason for action is one based in increasing X's well-being. However, people act all the time for reasons other than that, for example, reasons based out of obligatin to others. To think that giving money to a homeless person on the street because you feel bad for them and think they need the money more than you do hardly sstrikes me as a selfish act, and the reasons for doing so are certainly not based in increasing one's own well-being for the vast majority of people.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
no, if one defines someones actions to be in their self interest.

Example. A man gives up his seat on a lifeboat for a woman with a baby. But then he wanted to give up his seat?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is just circular, and until you are willing to dump this ridiculous perspective, there's just no point in having the discussion with you. It's just like the philosophical skeptics who use the "brain in a vat" argument. "Well, how can you ever know anything, even what can be empirically tested. After all, how do we know we're not really in something like The Matrix and everything we experience is just fake."

Why I never argue with skeptics: You argue with a dummy for too long, you look like the dummy.

[ QUOTE ]
A man gives up his seat on the lifeboat of a sinking ship to a woman with a baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, you tell me why he did it?

[ QUOTE ]
A person can both benefit and do what they want to do, but still be "ultimately" concerned with others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Example?

[ QUOTE ]
but there really is no logical contradiction to a "selfless act."

[/ QUOTE ]

Example?

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A person can both benefit and do what they want to do, but still be "ultimately" concerned with others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Example?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is one in my post.

[ QUOTE ]
If I want to donate all my money to charity and join the Peace Corps, I will undoubtedly find it rewarding, challenging, and feel good about making a difference in the world. So I definitely benefit, and it could be argued that I am acting in my own self-interest. But I am still very different from the person that wants to chain Chinese children to machines so they can make an additional .3% profit on Wal-Mart t-shirts.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you refering to this?

[Triumph36]

The lifeboat example still stands - good luck trying to explain that in terms of self-interest. Even if you did so, you'd be making an after-the-fact judgement that surely did not occur to those involved.

[ QUOTE ]
The lifeboat example still stands

[/ QUOTE ]

So far, from my perspective, it's like some one saying "This guy jumps off a cliff with ladies underwear on his head and dies. Now THATS not selfish"

I am still waiting for some one to explain to me why he did what he did.

edit: probably bad example, add the fact that 20 people are at the top of the cliff watching, and thought it was the greatest thing they've ever seen (entertainment value)

[Triumph36]

When you've said that all actions are selfish, you've created a tautology, as the Dude said. You're not saying anything at all - you're saying 'Find me an example of an unselfish act.', and if I said, "A man hits himself in the head with a hammer.", you would say, "Well, he's hitting himself so he must think it's in his own interest." Don't you see how you haven't said anything at all? You've assumed all actions are selfish and armed with that assumption, you've come a long way to the logical conclusion that: all actions are selfish! Amazing!

[ QUOTE ]
When you've said that all actions are selfish

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't, but I'm not sure this is important so no big deal

[ QUOTE ]
if I said, "A man hits himself in the head with a hammer.", you would say, "Well, he's hitting himself so he must think it's in his own interest."

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say "Why did he do that?"

[ QUOTE ]
You've assumed all actions are selfish

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I have

I don't know if this will simplify or complicate the question, but an alternate form of my question is:

When a guy does what he wants to do, is it possible for him that what he did was not ultimately concerned with himself?

[Zygote]

No one can choose something that is not selfish. I have been advocating this for some time on this forum.

[Mat Sklansky]

I think clarity to this discussion can be more easily obtained if one is to suggest that altruism, as a behavorial phenomenon, is still rooted within the human psyche as being selfishly motivated.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I think clarity to this discussion can be more easily obtained if one is to suggest that altruism, as a behavorial phenomenon, is still rooted within the human psyche as being selfishly motivated.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does your girlfriend realize that all that you say to her and do for her are not really because you love/care for her, but just because you want to get laid?

[Mat Sklansky]

That's not all I want. But I would be willing to bet that the feeling I have when I am quite certain I have done something to make her happy, is a happier feeling than than the one I've bestowed upon her. The best example are the times I clean the house for her. I hate cleaning, but when I see how happy it makes her, that.... It goes on and on.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
but when I see how happy it makes her

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying you do those things from a selfish motive to make yourself feel good, or in fact from an altruistic motive that places her happiness above your own?

[BluffTHIS!]

bump for matt's next reply.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
but there really is no logical contradiction to a "selfless act." [ QUOTE ]
Example?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
An atheist who sacrafices his life to save another.

Since I am a Christian, you can easily pull the "because you think it's what God wants to do, and that it is in your best interest to please him" card on whatever personal examples I give you. If you're willing to take my word for it, I can tell you that there have been a few times where I have made decisions devoid of any "ultimate concern for self." But I understand if you're not willing to take my word for it.

The atheist who willingly gives his life for others (and tehre are tons of documented examples of this) is almost always either being completely selfless or acting inconsistently with his beliefs. While there are a few plausible explanations that might suggest somebody was simply acting inconsistently (mental illness, repressed belief in something that contradicts his atheism, etc.), it seems to me to be extremely unlikely that all such cases can be explained away.

This is a most interesting example

I'm pretty much an atheist, by that I mean I think there is a small chance of a god who even realizes we exist

But yes, I would easily sacrifice my life for many different people, example, my neice, obviously the cutest baby in the world:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b214/HotPantsPoker/JA.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b214/HotPantsPoker/A.jpg

But I'm not really sure why

Why do you think? This is a sincere question, I'm not being sarcastic or anything. I have a few guesses, but I really don't know

In case it's relevent, I don't believe in right or wrong, I 'go by my feelings' (compassion, love, jealously, etc.)

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm not really sure why

Why do you think? This is a sincere question, I'm not being sarcastic or anything. I have a few guesses, but I really don't know


[/ QUOTE ]


Short answer: evolution.
I think you can take it from there.

FWIW, I too would probably sacrifice my life to save your niece. And it would happen instinctively, almost without my thinking about it (at least in circumstances that required a very fast decision).

-Zeno

[ QUOTE ]
Short answer: evolution.
I think you can take it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this was one of my guesses. If so, it seems to me that this is still selfish. Me sacrificing my life would be just following my feelings/emotions/intsincts, like I do in every other decision I make

And as for my own benifit, the reason behind it all, you could argue that the process of sacrificing myself is satisfying to me

[Zygote]

i think he's saying that if he doesn't feel good about making her happy and doesn't like cleaning the house, then, you will never catch him cleaning the house. This basically means that he values his girlfriend in HIS life and uses her as a means to HIS happiness. The funny thing is that this is what everyone does. Even someone who, in a seemingly altruistic fashion, cleans any random house is only doing so because they value any random person in their life. If they do not value a random person and are not personally made happy by the act of cleaning alone, then, i can assure you they will not be caught cleaning any houses either.

[Zeno]

One thing that should be noted: the word selfish has a negative ring, an aura of nastiness about it, for reasons that are obivious to all I would think. Being selfish is seen as a sin, but all selfishness is not bad is it? Is there a continuum between 'bad' selfishness, good selfishness, and on to practical self-interest?

Is altruism a myth? Perhaps it is. But perhaps we are also 'trapped' by the limitations of our own minds and the evolution of the human brain and the instinct of survival for not just ourselves but for the species as a whole.

-Zeno

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think? This is a sincere question, I'm not being sarcastic or anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know exactly either. I don't think you can chaulk it up to instinct completely, since there are plenty of examples of such a sacrafice that were made in a calm, calulated fashion - the person simply decided that they would rather save the other's life than keep their own.

Most Christians grossly understimate how genuinely good non-Christians can be. This reality has been something I've wrestled with over the past couple years, and really come to separate myself from a lot of Christians who seem inable to see this. Come to think of it, I don't really get along with most hard-core Christians that well. They bug the hell out of me.

[Mat Sklansky]

This is basically right. Really, it's not that complicated for me. I have a strong sense of what is right for me, and admittedly, I wish others had that same sense. But I acknwoledge that this, too, is selfish on my part; not any universal truth.

So if I behave altruistically in any circumstance, it is simply an act which keeps me true to my own ideals, and yes, I think this is selfish.

Recall, I feel that behavior is separate from inner motivation in the case of altruism. And I feel strongly that people should behave unselfishly often. Whatever their selfish reason may be.