what would you do?

NL ring game. The player in front of you appears to play... well, a bit weird.

You call his early position raise with Jh-Th, with huge implied odds (investing less than 2% of his stack, which you have covered).

The flop is Ac-Qh-8h, giving you a monster double-belly flush draw. He makes a piddy little bet (same size as the preflop raise).

Discuss.

dt

[MagnoliasFM]

i'd raise, even against a set you're only a 3:2 dog and against AQ you're even money, so you don't have to worried about getting blasted off your hand. raising gives you fold equity, and it also makes it easier for you to gague the strength of your opponent as well asget paid off later when you hit your hand. plus it's deep stacks and you have position.

[sekrah]

Small raise.. 2 or 3x BB. Build a pot. You have a monster draw, and most likely a slight favorite here, you want his chips in the pot, not pushing him out.

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
Small raise.. 2 or 3x BB. Build a pot. You have a monster draw, and most likely a slight favorite here, you want his chips in the pot, not pushing him out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think this is a good example of a hand where you want to be raising to keep him in the pot, not raising to drive him out. Even though you're not there yet, build a pot anyways, because if it comes, you'll be able to make a nice river bet, and if it doesn't you haven't invested your whole stack.

Just hope that he has A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif and the 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif comes on the turn. But then again, if I had that kind of good fortune, I'd be out playing the lottery.

[kagame]

you dont build pots with draws for the turn

NL 101

do what you can to get all in on the flop here

[ QUOTE ]
do what you can to get all in on the flop here

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Agreed. Key point: if you call, or make a small raise, then 70% of the time you can be pushed off the draw with a normal bet (or larger) on the turn. It would seem that the time to act is now. Am I wrong?

How about moving all-in? You are a tiny favorite over AK, which would be hard pressed to call in any case. In fact, all one pair hands should just fold to that huge overbet. You are only a tiny dog to Aces-up, and 41% against even a set. The only real problem case is Ah-Xh.

Obviously moving all-in means being risk neutral, not a wimp. The question is whether it is a correct EV play.

If moving all-in is a viable option, then could a truly massive raise, leaving a guaranteed correct pot-odds call on the turn maybe be even a wee bit better? (if the opponent plays he should just jam, on the flop or turn, but he might bungle it, giving us extra implied odds)

dt

[Sadat X]

Not only are you probably even money, you have fold equity AND the raise disguises your hand beautifully. A lot of factors that favor raising 2/3 pot.

[Leptyne]

NLHE 101:

Basic Flop Questions:

1. Do I have the best hand?
2. Do I have the best draw?
3. What is my position?

Of course kagame is correct. The problem I see is when you put in a pot sized raise you're probably ahead of hands that will only call, like JJ, and behind hands that are worthy of a raise. But what kind of donk will have a hand that will re-raise that is only worth an open limp raise and a weak lead of less than half the pot? Is this a trick question?

[Leptyne]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do what you can to get all in on the flop here

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Key point: if you call, or make a small raise, then 70% of the time you can be pushed off the draw with a normal bet (or larger) on the turn. It would seem that the time to act is now. Am I wrong?

How about moving all-in? You are a tiny favorite over AK, which would be hard pressed to call in any case. In fact, all one pair hands should just fold to that huge overbet. You are only a tiny dog to Aces-up, and 41% against even a set. The only real problem case is Ah-Xh.

Obviously moving all-in means being risk neutral, not a wimp. The question is whether it is a correct EV play.

If moving all-in is a viable option, then could a truly massive raise, leaving a guaranteed correct pot-odds call on the turn maybe be even a wee bit better? (if the opponent plays he should just jam, on the flop or turn, but he might bungle it, giving us extra implied odds)

dt

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking the best move is the one that maximizes the opportunity for your opponent to make a mistake. I push and hope he puts me on a flush draw and calls with his 99 or TT.

[Leptyne]

Oops! I thought too hard and broke my brain. Unfortunately time has expired and I can't delete my post. Meh.

[kagame]

youre much more than a tiny fav over a pair with a sf draw

[captZEEbo1]

I'd pot raise if he reraises you got to push. If he calls take free one on turn and don't plan on bluffing river.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
youre much more than a tiny fav over a pair with a sf draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

To have a pair and a sf draw, villian has to have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif or A/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, and those are both runner runner draws (which, of course, can't hit, given our cards).

[VanVeen]

Agreed.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
youre much more than a tiny fav over a pair with a sf draw

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Huh?

To have a pair and a sf draw, villian has to have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif or A/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, and those are both runner runner draws (which, of course, can't hit, given our cards).

[/ QUOTE ]

no he's saying Hero is much more than a tiny fav v. 'a small pair' with his 'sf draw'

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I'd pot raise if he reraises you got to push. If he calls take free one on turn and don't plan on bluffing river.

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It's nice of him to give us the free turn -- we should add him to our christmas card list.

But what if he doesn't?

Or what if we make the draw, but lose our market because of the scary board?

Wouldn't it have been better to jam on the flop in either case?

dt

[MagnoliasFM]

[ QUOTE ]
youre much more than a tiny fav over a pair with a sf draw

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Vs. AK no hearts you're only a slight favorite and you're actually a slight dog to AK with a heart. same with a pair of kings, queens or whatever. You're at best a roughly 2:1 favorite vs. a pair lower than jacks.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
you dont build pots with draws for the turn

NL 101

do what you can to get all in on the flop here

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree. a lot.

you have implied odds. you have the best draw. you have position.

if you raise on the flop to keep him in (and he sucks so let's say he will call you down with a loser) you can likely take a free card on the turn if you miss, thereby investing like 1/3 your stack when you miss (less than 1/2 the time) and doubling up when you hit. if you put him all in you will take down a tiny pot.

you only hit monster draws every so often. just because you aren't there yet doesn't mean you shouldn't captialize on the great opportunity to potentially double up. use position to your advantage. small raise on flop... if you get there on turn, you have two chances to milk him (this is still assuming he sucks) and if you have to wait til river you can probably put in a value bet still. if it seems like he hates his hand (physical reads any of you who livei n the non internet world) you can maybe push in on a missed draw if he checks to you twice and still take it down.

[RikaKazak]

obvious raise

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
NL ring game. The player in front of you appears to play... well, a bit weird.

You call his early position raise with Jh-Th, with huge implied odds (investing less than 2% of his stack, which you have covered).

The flop is Ac-Qh-8h, giving you a monster double-belly flush draw. He makes a piddy little bet (same size as the preflop raise).

Discuss.

dt

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an easy raise-a call basically ensures that if you hit, you win a small pot at best. A raise does many things, all of them good:
a) Gets money in the pot when you're a favorite
b) Gets opponent to slow down on the turn if you brick
c) Conceals your hand if you hit
Also, while you shouldn't be dying to get it all in (your edge isn't huge) the fact that you can stand to play a big pot means you don't have to be afraid that you have no fold equity if your opponent gets saucy w/AK or some similar hand