2nd set question?

[brendons31]

This hand was from a few weeks ago, havent got a hand history but can remember it pretty well. Still wondering on if i did the right think.

I'm round at a mates place having a few drinks before going out. forgot to close pokerstars at home so got round to his place and couldnt open stars, he also has party poker on his computer so i log into that where i just have $160 in my account. I decide to play a couple of pot limit omaha $100 max buy in tables. I have very limited experiance with pot limit omaha cash games, but that limited experiance has been very profitable.

After a couple of hours I have turned one of the $80 buy ins into $450 or so and are dealt KKQQ 1 before the button. A few people limp in in front of me, I limp in too, the button who has about $150 raises the pot. I don't know anything about him because he's relatively new to the table and wasn't paying much attention anyway. I'm thinking he has AAXX as this is often what people raise with in omaha (personally I basicly never raise with AA in cash games, and are more likely to raise with a hand like 910JQ). The limpers call, and I call too and the pot is around $30 pre-flop.

Flop comes down AK9 rainbow which gives me 2nd set. All the limpers check, I check too, and the original bettor bets the pot. All of the limpers fold, it comes to me, I take some time and decide to go with my original thought that he has AA and fold my hand instead of trying to hit what I was thinking was 1 out.

Was this play too tight, did I give him too much credit for having AA. Maybe he makes this move with AK, or perhaps AQ, but with me holding KKQQ this seemed unlikely. Other possibilities were 99, A9 (which seemed unlikely) also a reasonable possibility could of been a holding like 10JQ(giving him 9 outs to str8). Being party poker he may of just had an ace or on a bluff with nothing.

At the time of the fold I was thinking "the hand has cost me $5 to see a flop, if i go on with it its likely to cost me another $150 to make $180 profit". Having won all of my money in this session by having the best of it (nuts every time) i folded thinking I don't wanna pay out someone else when I don't have the best of it.

Other options for playing this hand were to bet out into the raiser, or check raise (effectively pot comiting myself as I would have to call his reraise). The reason I didn't bet out in the hand was because I was wanting to see how this guy played the hand(if he bets or checks) and then if he bets I was wanting to see how other players respond to the bet. If I see more action from the other players I give them credit for perhaps having an ace and therefore reducing his chances of having AA. Also more action from other players increases my "reverese implied odds"(1st time i have used that phrase in a sentence. ie. The amount of money I can win is higher and therefore more worth the risk that I may be drawing close to dead.

Whats your opinions on how I played the hand. Did I play it too conservatively. Should I have reraised, or should I have bet into him or should i of cold called and see what he does on the turn (may of done this if I had position on him). I think betting into him with the intention of folding to a raise was a reasonable option. If he calls then would of been another tough decision on the turn, would I give him credit for slowplaying AA (which would of been a bad play on his part) and check/fold or would I take this call as weakness and bet again?

If this was a tourny, where there are the pressures of having to continuously keep building a stack I would of been far more likely to play this hand strongly and reraise over the top, however this was a cash game where these same pressures didn't apply.

[joewatch]

As a beginning player, I think that nut peddling (that is, betting/raising only when you have the nuts) is a reasonable way to learn the game and bet profitable. However, you will eventually need to open up your game and learn how to play 2nd nuts, underfulls, big draws, trips, etc to maximize your profits.

That being said, with 2nd set, I think the best approach is to bet out (half to 1x pot depending on your style), and fold to any raise, which likely puts someone on aces. The other possible play is to check-raise as you said, which I think is very reasonable. You don't need to raise full pot.

[Spellmen]

There are alot of times that I will throw away kings here, but they are player dependent where I know the player only raises with aces. With him being on the button though I think it is a very reasonable assumption that he could raise a variety of hands here and that your kings are good. I don't think it's a tragedy to throw them away, but I wouldn't get accustomed to automatically tossing middle set at this level

[Ribbo]

Please don't generalise about "second set".

Having 55 on a 259 flop is a lot different to having KK on a AK6 flop.
You will find players don't like raising AA preflop because they don't want to be "labelled". When you flop any set with AA out you have to proceed with caution. Sure raise it up, the guy might very well have top 2 pair. Just be aware that a lot of players don't like raising AA preflop.
I am always a lot happier shoving flops with middle set when an ace doesn't flop.

[Big Dave D]

On most sites, from levels 2-4 on up, middle set IS top set. I can count the number of players I would pass it to on one hand.

And unlike Ribbo, I think that the vast bulk of players at that level nearly ALWAYS raise with AA, whether it is right or not. But they often raise with a lot of other hands too.

gl

Dave D

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
On most sites, from levels 2-4 on up, middle set IS top set. I can count the number of players I would pass it to on one hand.

And unlike Ribbo, I think that the vast bulk of players at that level nearly ALWAYS raise with AA, whether it is right or not. But they often raise with a lot of other hands too.

gl

Dave D

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that point. Those who do raise AA, do raise other hands also. Those who don't raise AA, don't raise other hands also. This was more the point I was making. You have to be sure which group your adversary falls into.
More often than not middle set is good, and I would err towards shoving most times.

[autobet]

Betting out to gain information would have been a better option than checking and folding.

[jomatty]

i would never just check fold in this situation. you have to either bet out or check raise in my opinion and then you can fold with a much clearer concience.
matty