88 -- mainly I'm just wondering about the river, too. [Archive]

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private joker

08-17-2005, 04:55 AM

CO is 27/13/0.8, and no read on BB.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (9 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks...

weevil

08-17-2005, 05:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
CO is 27/13/0.8, and no read on BB.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (9 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're too worried about CO calling or raising with a hand that beats you, when you have a decent chance of having the best hand and getting called by at least the BB who probably has a weak pair below yours, or a busted draw he'd probably pay a BB to look you up with. I could easily put CO on something like A7s, and UTG on j10 or thereabouts. CO probably isn't raising two players, one who has represented strength, without something beating you. If he does, and BB calls, you can fold safely, if BB folds you're getting 12:1 and can probably look him up. Sound reasonable?

weevil

08-17-2005, 05:06 AM

Yeah, I guess all I have to say now is: Stella sucks and i hax0r u

private joker

08-17-2005, 05:09 AM

It sounds reasonable, but CO's cold-call almost always means he's on a draw, especially given his numbers. No draws came in, so I don't see a value in a bet against him. As for BB, I don't think he's folding a better hand on the river (like a weak 9 he saw a free flop with). Yes, him having a worse pair is the best chance I have at making money with a bet, but I'd rather let CO check behind and lose less when BB has a 9, which I think happens quite often.

oreogod

08-17-2005, 05:12 AM

Hopefully BB was betting the 7 or low pp and not the 9.

You are not worried about CO imo, and on a board like this BB will call u with a 9,7, or low pp.

Man thats tough, but I think I bet. But Im like 60/40. He will call with more hands you beat.

08-17-2005, 05:16 AM

Am I weird for raising this preflop?

I think a river value bet is in order.

Nick C

08-17-2005, 05:20 AM

My first instinct is to bet.

But if CO actually calls, that could be bad -- I think we want him to have something like T8s or JTs.

So if we bet, we're mostly (I think) trying to get a bet out of BB, who could have a 9 or a 7, if he's calling. I guess he could have a 4 too, or some pocket pair. But, you know, I'm not sure how favorable this really looks, if we get called. I mean, BB could have any sort of crap kicker he's worried about with top pair, and top pair is at least a little more of a betting hand than second pair, on the flop, especially when BB was betting into five people.

Hmm. You know what? I think I'd check, like you did, and hope for a free showdown.

I guess CO could have A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or something and call with it, while BB folds his 86o. But, really, how likely is that?

private joker

08-17-2005, 05:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Am I weird for raising this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

A little LAGgy, but a lot of people here raise sort of light. For me, 88 in EP after one limper is not a raising hand.

private joker

08-17-2005, 05:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
and top pair is at least a little more of a betting hand than second pair, on the flop, especially when BB was betting into five people.

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This was my thought. Betting out into a large field when first to act usually means top pair or draw. Neither one calls this river bet if I make one.

weevil

08-17-2005, 05:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and top pair is at least a little more of a betting hand than second pair, on the flop, especially when BB was betting into five people.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thought. Betting out into a large field when first to act usually means top pair or draw. Neither one calls this river bet if I make one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for the average 5/10 player, but don't you just as often see a blind betting out a draw or mid/bottom pair here? I certainly do in 2/4 and 3/6 ring. Many players don't really take into consideration the number of players in the pot or their position... I guess without a read on the BB, I probably would have instinctively checked through this river too, but it definately seems close.

Do we call if CO bets and BB calls?

oreogod

08-17-2005, 05:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and top pair is at least a little more of a betting hand than second pair, on the flop, especially when BB was betting into five people.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thought. Betting out into a large field when first to act usually means top pair or draw. Neither one calls this river bet if I make one.

[/ QUOTE ]

So u wouldn't bet your 88 first to go on the flop? I think a decent amount of stuff gets bet here.

Either way the situation never really changed past the flop...if BB actually has a hand and CO has a draw, I guess mathwise it would be hard to tell if you are ahead 55 percent here. I guess this is where reads help, if BB will call u down w/22-66, A7, K7...etc or only w/ a 9.

08-17-2005, 09:59 AM

I think that there is a very good chance that your hand is good. I would bet on the river and call if raised.

Best Regards,

speirs

08-17-2005, 10:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds reasonable, but CO's cold-call almost always means he's on a draw, especially given his numbers. No draws came in, so I don't see a value in a bet against him. As for BB, I don't think he's folding a better hand on the river (like a weak 9 he saw a free flop with). Yes, him having a worse pair is the best chance I have at making money with a bet, but I'd rather let CO check behind and lose less when BB has a 9, which I think happens quite often.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I thought. CO is drawing (which didn't came in) and I think BB has a nine and will call. I won't bet this one.

brettbrettr

08-17-2005, 10:26 AM

I think I'd raise pre-flop. As for the river, I think I might just bet. Overcalling here would be bad, but I don't think it would be that bad. CO could easily bluff with whatever draw/overs he's holding and BB could call with a 7.

I think I might just bet b/c I'd rather make a bad bet than a bad call(?) and I really don't think you're getting raised.

private joker

08-17-2005, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet on the river and call if raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why you think your hand is good when raised?

sfer

08-17-2005, 02:13 PM

Raise preflop, bet the river.

brettbrettr

08-17-2005, 02:15 PM

I said the same thing but my reasons for betting the river sort of might suck. Mind elaborating on why we're betting this river?

sfer

08-17-2005, 02:45 PM

Similar reasoning to jason_t's AA hand.

brettbrettr

08-17-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Because you'll get raised rarely, because you're guaranteed at least second place, and because I hate missing bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above was edited...

private joker

08-17-2005, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

So is nobody ever limping anymore with 88 on 2+2? Is 77 the cutoff for limping in this spot? It seems to me 99+ is a better raising range in EP after one limper than 88+, but I can be persuaded if someone shows some solid math/reasoning.

sfer

08-17-2005, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because you'll get raised rarely, because you're guaranteed at least second place, and because I hate missing bets.

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The above was edited...

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It's more a TOP concept, which is to say the third player will bet only when you're beaten but will call with worse hands sometimes. I mention this somewhere in that thread too.

sfer

08-17-2005, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

So is nobody ever limping anymore with 88 on 2+2? Is 77 the cutoff for limping in this spot? It seems to me 99+ is a better raising range in EP after one limper than 88+, but I can be persuaded if someone shows some solid math/reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif raising limpers with 77+ from anywhere. I usually openraise from UTG. I feel comfortable getting away from the hand postflop and I think raising makes it easier to play. Plus, I tend to play a lot of the same players repeatedly and there are good metagame benefits from having a wide raising range.

istewart

08-17-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because you'll get raised rarely, because you're guaranteed at least second place, and because I hate missing bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above was edited...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more a TOP concept, which is to say the third player will bet only when you're beaten but will call with worse hands sometimes. I mention this somewhere in that thread too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it that if a bet goes in on the river, you're a bigger favorite if you bet yourself than call a bet? Kind of a better of two evils scenario?