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Troyenne

08-17-2005, 04:52 AM

Here I flop top pair with a medium kicker plus a flush draw out of the BB. I feel like I'm encountering several different concepts from SSH at once, so I'm a bit confused about the best way to play.

The table is generally loose passive, but can get pretty weak/tight facing a lot of aggression. I haven't seen a lot from Button, but he seems to be a typical loose passive player.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button raises, SB folds, Hero...?

I assume Button has at least top pair to be raising. Should I call assuming there's a good chance I'm outkicked and encourage the others to stay in for my flush draw? Should I 3-bet to protect against backdoor/gutshot draws, assuming there's still a good chance I have the best hand? Should I 3-bet just because my hand is so strong and hope everyone pays me off? Anything else I should consider?

Here's what I did:
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, CO folds.

Was the check/call ok here? I continue the same line I took on the flop, hoping the others contribute to the pot should I make the flush.

They both fold, which now changes the dynamic of the hand.

River: (9 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero...?

08-17-2005, 05:11 AM

3bet that flop for value. You have a strong made hand + a strong draw.

08-17-2005, 05:34 AM

3-bet the flop. Lead out the turn. If you're not re-raised on the turn, I'd bet the river as well and hope the button doesn't turn over JT+.

The pot is already a decent size and you 3-betting it on the flop won't scare away too many people. Plus, you will make two-pair or better by the river about 60% of the time, so this is definitely a value bet.

Sykes

08-17-2005, 07:18 AM

I'm torn between a 3 bet and a call.

If button has JJ/33/44, you have 9 outs.
If button has AJ/KJ/QJ/JT, you have 12 outs.
If button has AA-QQ you have 15 outs.
If button has higher spades like Ax of spades, he has 12 outs. KQ of spades gives him 15 outs.

Let's just take out that he doesn't have AA-QQ and he doesn't have JJ.

So that puts his range as (33/44/JT/QJ/KJ/Ax of spades/KQs of spades)

Against that hand range, you have a 44% Equity. So, I would really hate 3 betting if it got rid of both callers. If 1 of the callers called your 3 bet, then it's +EV, although if both folded it's -EV.

But since this is .5/1 and there is a ton of people who will call 2, It's +EV to 3 bet this flop.

Check/call turn.

River is player dependent. Also, dependent on what he does to your 3 bet and if he bets the turn.

Sykes

08-17-2005, 07:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop. Lead out the turn. If you're not re-raised on the turn, I'd bet the river as well and hope the button doesn't turn over JT+.

The pot is already a decent size and you 3-betting it on the flop won't scare away too many people. Plus, you will make two-pair or better by the river about 60% of the time, so this is definitely a value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even against QQ (no spade), you're only 50/50 to make your hand. If guy has (spade), you're an slight underdog to make your hand so it's -EV.

Betting the river UI is -EV , Do you see why?

08-17-2005, 08:44 AM

Okay, betting the river would be a bad move since you were raised on the flop. Then again, if I were the button, I'd make this same play with a spade draw.

I don't even know why you brought QQ into this. It's much more likely he has JT+ or a flush/straight draw than an overpair here. (Or if he's really aggressive he might be doing this with bottom pair and overcard.)

Against JT+, you lose two outs. You still have your four 9s, and nine spades (assuming he isn't on a flush draw... which would be a GREAT situation for you anyway). So you're right, assuming he has JT+, you're more like 52% to win by the river.

Sykes

08-17-2005, 09:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, betting the river would be a bad move since you were raised on the flop. Then again, if I were the button, I'd make this same play with a spade draw.

I don't even know why you brought QQ into this. It's much more likely he has JT+ or a flush/straight draw than an overpair here. (Or if he's really aggressive he might be doing this with bottom pair and overcard.)

Against JT+, you lose two outs. You still have your four 9s, and nine spades (assuming he isn't on a flush draw... which would be a GREAT situation for you anyway). So you're right, assuming he has JT+, you're more like 52% to win by the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you read anything I just wrote?

You only have 3 9's and 9 spades. That's 12 outs. 15 outs is the minimum number of outs where your hand is more than 50% to win.

Also, you are correct that an A high spade draw would do the same play, that is why if the turn is check through (although I doubt it with the A hitting the turn), then you can bet/fold or check/call river.

tiltaholic

08-17-2005, 10:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't seen a lot from Button, but he seems to be a typical loose passive player.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the first part of your read is true, then:

[ QUOTE ]
I assume Button has at least top pair to be raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

is potentially faulty. But if the second part of your read is true, then it is fairer.

I definitely 3-bet the flop and go from there. Get money in the pot while you have a huge edge.

You can't bet this river as you played the hand thus far. I check. I probably call to get information, though if villian is very passive I think you can safely check-fold the river.

2+2 Junkie

08-17-2005, 10:16 AM

Grunching.
I would raise that 3-bet that thing on the flop. You have top pair and a flush draw. Any J, 9, or /images/graemlins/spade.gif helps you, you have UTG+1 and CO trapped, cap if necessary here.

Turn: perfect

River: You should check and fold.

Troyenne

08-17-2005, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
then you can bet/fold or check/call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could probably go look for some river examples to study, but just for quick clarification:

I'd typically go for bet/fold as long as I'm comfortable laying the hand down, correct (i.e. against a passive, predictable player)? And against a player I suspect might be tricky enough to raise the river on a bluff, I would check to induce a bluff, right? River play is another thing I should study more.