Massive pot, play it with me!

[ArturiusX]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, CO (poster) calls, Hero ???

[clownshoes]

Caps.

I fold JJ here, but that's just me. I hate being that vulnerable to overcards on the flop. Many people will disagree /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold JJ here, but that't just me. I hate being that vulnerable to overcards on the flop. Many people will disagree /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I call with 22 here.

[TheHammer24]

On the button cap it.

[clownshoes]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold JJ here, but that's just me. I hate being that vulnerable to overcards on the flop. Many people will disagree /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats unbelievably awful.

[SackUp]

this is close for me. it is fold/cap.

what are the stats on the rasiers? I'm folding for sure if a rock 3 bet, I'll cap if the reraiser is a 50/20 guy or something absurd like that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold JJ here, but that't just me. I hate being that vulnerable to overcards on the flop. Many people will disagree /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I call with 22 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats unbelievably awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the posts I've seen of yours, you're unbelievably tight.

[clownshoes]

I say cap and he says fold and Im tight? What?

well Sackup made a good point, why would you cap or even call if a rock 3-bet that?

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
well Sackup made a good point, why would you cap or even call if a rock 3-bet that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set value + implied odds.

[ArturiusX]

<font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (24.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero ???

[shant]

I'd call.

Bet the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well Sackup made a good point, why would you cap or even call if a rock 3-bet that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set value + implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can scream set value + implied odds all you want, but if you're playing in a rock garden and this happens the correct play is to fold.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well Sackup made a good point, why would you cap or even call if a rock 3-bet that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set value + implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

could you show me some math on this? It just seems like this would have to be pretty high considering the amount of times you are well behind here against a tight 3 bettor.

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well Sackup made a good point, why would you cap or even call if a rock 3-bet that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set value + implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can scream set value + implied odds all you want, but if you're playing in a rock garden and this happens the correct play is to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont be so w/t.

Even rocks 3-bet TT and AK.

[SackUp]

if you cap then why would you not bet this?

You probably are not getting anyone to fold so I guess you are hoping for another blank to fall so you can pop the turn? I don't know that this is really a viable option. I think you need to bet out and see what happens.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]


You can scream set value + implied odds all you want, but if you're playing in a rock garden and this happens the correct play is to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did this rock garden business come from? You're really confusing, dude.

Its simple, we're 8:1 to hit a set. Playing post flop is easy, we miss we fold, we hit we raise. The pot is large so over pairs are going to go nuts, AK is going to draw to the river, and everyones going to hate being in the pot but can't fold.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
if you cap then why would you not bet this?

You probably are not getting anyone to fold so I guess you are hoping for another blank to fall so you can pop the turn? I don't know that this is really a viable option. I think you need to bet out and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

The notion is that I can take a free card, and the chance I get check-raise is pretty big here. I've got a heart draw, and I'd love to see an undercard heart on this turn. An A/K would mean a fold, and we ain't folding anyone with an A/K in their hand.

[Petteri]

Now betting does not protect your hand, no-one will fold. You have only 2 outs. I think check-raise is pretty possible here. I do not think your pot equity is much higher than 17 %.

I would take free card and try to protect hand on turn if blank hits.

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
well Sackup made a good point, why would you cap or even call if a rock 3-bet that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set value + implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]


You can scream set value + implied odds all you want, but if you're playing in a rock garden and this happens the correct play is to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont be so w/t.

Even rocks 3-bet TT and AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can call me w/t all you want, but with no table conditions given and a raise+reraise holding JJ, the play is to fold. Now if you wanna edit the original post and include the fact that you're playing on a loose table then go ahead and cap it all day /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ArturiusX]

I quit posting here the day we assume small stakes is a tight table /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The table consists of about 4 tight players (may be tags, I haven't run into one yet), 3 regular party folk (30/5ish) and 3 mega donks (50/30ish). Needless to say, its the megadonks in the raising war, might be a tightie in their I wasn't sure. But I really don't believe it affect our decision at all.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you cap then why would you not bet this?

You probably are not getting anyone to fold so I guess you are hoping for another blank to fall so you can pop the turn? I don't know that this is really a viable option. I think you need to bet out and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

The notion is that I can take a free card, and the chance I get check-raise is pretty big here. I've got a heart draw, and I'd love to see an undercard heart on this turn. An A/K would mean a fold, and we ain't folding anyone with an A/K in their hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok i can go with this. i was just rereading the section in hepfap discussing this topic. i like the free card play.

lets see the rest of the hand, b/c there are some serious questions on the turn now.

Not trying to start a huge debate, and charts are as worthless as the paper they are printed on. But your poker bible (sshe), just for reference, has us folding this hand on a tight table and just calling on a loose one. FYI.

[oreogod]

No reads, this is a cap. (preflop)

Say u have 2 uber Tight Rocks, one raising, the other 3-betting. A fold is not bad. BUT this is not going to be most situations. Most of the time this is a cap.

[oreogod]

I tried to bring this up in another thread...but if you have a 3-bettor preflop to your immediate right and hold JJ (if u already put a bet or raise in)...I like to call and raise their flop bet if the pot is going to be pretty multiway.

True I miss value doing that. But it works well postflop. Not that I recommend it, just a thought.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Not trying to start a huge debate, and charts are as worthless as the paper they are printed on. But your poker bible (sshe), just for reference, has us folding this hand on a tight table and just calling on a loose one. FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]

What page is this?

Also, I think the flop decision is FAR more interesting decision than this preflop crap. I thought it was going to be a standard '3 posters say cap' and move on, but it seems some people don't understand.

Pg 81. Tight table. late position against a raise+reraise:

Play: AA-QQ and AKs (also raise the same hands)

Pg. 83. Loose table. late position against a raise+reraise:

Play: AA-TT, AKs-AJs, KQs, and AK
Reraise: AA-QQ and AKs

(delete this post if I can't legally type that) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not trying to start a huge debate, and charts are as worthless as the paper they are printed on. But your poker bible (sshe), just for reference, has us folding this hand on a tight table and just calling on a loose one. FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]

What page is this?

Also, I think the flop decision is FAR more interesting decision than this preflop crap. I thought it was going to be a standard '3 posters say cap' and move on, but it seems some people don't understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

80-81 I think. Whatever the tight table hand charts are on.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not trying to start a huge debate, and charts are as worthless as the paper they are printed on. But your poker bible (sshe), just for reference, has us folding this hand on a tight table and just calling on a loose one. FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]

What page is this?

Also, I think the flop decision is FAR more interesting decision than this preflop crap. I thought it was going to be a standard '3 posters say cap' and move on, but it seems some people don't understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

p. 81 for "tight games" (3-5) doesn't have us playing JJ against a raise and reraise.

p. 83 has it as a call.

Obviously these are not set in stone and do not account for game conditions, but there you have it.

I might be sold on calling with JJ here, but not quite sure yet.

[ArturiusX]

I think you should review the preflop action very slowly and ask yourself whether a limper + poster would have been what Miller had in mind when he recommended a fold on a tight table.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should review the preflop action very slowly and ask yourself whether a limper + poster would have been what Miller had in mind when he recommended a fold on a tight table.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, we have established this as a debateable issue, let's move on, no matter what Ed, me, or you say. The post-flop action is more important. I am just giving my opinion on my pre-flop beliefs /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[oreogod]

Okay let me just step in cause Im curious. Does anyone agree on the idea (if u have u raised and are three bet by a player to your immediate right) and the pot is multiway...of just calling the 3-bet w/ JJ and raising the 3-bettors flop bet for leverage postflop?

Or is that just a bogus uncalled for idea? Im really curious.

I know value is missed preflop.

[ArturiusX]

Maybe agaisnt a thinking player, but against a random I think a little too much value is lost preflop. Besides, we'd hate to raise an ace high flop and would like a cheap showdown, which capping may help us to achieve.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay let me just step in cause Im curious. Does anyone agree on the idea (if u have u raised and are three bet by a player to your immediate right) and the pot is multiway...of just calling the 3-bet w/ JJ and raising the 3-bettors flop bet for leverage postflop?

Or is that just a bogus uncalled for idea? Im really curious.

I know value is missed preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I said I'd call preflop up above. I think even if the flop comes favorably it's still better to wait for the turn to raise. Betting if checked to obviously.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Has anybody done any research on just how many SB we make up postflop on average per player? Calling for set value only here (you say you'd call with 22) means you're going to have to make up around like 11 SB postflop and I'm just wondering if there is some kind of range people have agreed upon.

11 sounds way too high for me but I think I recall people saying they were comfortable with making up like 7 or so with 3 opponents. Not sure.

[Petteri]

I think against 4 other players JJ is worth call with players still to act. Playing against raise and re-raise is different then pot is multiway. I do not like pre-flop cap because it can drive players out of the pot.

With JJ you want either many callers so you have odds to draw to set or 1-2 callers so your pair can hold up.

depending on the flop I guess it's not totally off the wall. If it's 3-bet back I guess it will give you some more information on his possible holdings.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay let me just step in cause Im curious. Does anyone agree on the idea (if u have u raised and are three bet by a player to your immediate right) and the pot is multiway...of just calling the 3-bet w/ JJ and raising the 3-bettors flop bet for leverage postflop?

Or is that just a bogus uncalled for idea? Im really curious.

I know value is missed preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I said I'd call preflop up above. I think even if the flop comes favorably it's still better to wait for the turn to raise. Betting if checked to obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree...turn is bettor. Shant is the man, per usual. Sorry about that, u say so much w/ so little I missed it going over the thread.

[TemetNosce]

[ QUOTE ]
I would take free card and try to protect hand on turn if blank hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

[Petteri]

Pot is on flop 24.33 SB and pot equity perhaps 20 %. If hero bets every draw has around 30-1 odds to call. If everybody calls 1 bet pot will be 30 SB. If someone check-raises pot will become even larger.

If blank hits turn pot equity raises to perhaps 25 % . Now it is very likely that someone ahead bets and hero can raise. Some players have to face 2 bets cold getting around 10-1 odds. Now for poorest hands it is correct to fold. If pot became much larger on flop it was correct for every draw to call 2 bets.

If overcard or heart hits at turn it is time to strongly consider folding.

[ArturiusX]

Good analysis.

I bet the flop. The turn came another blank (2 I believe), exactly the same action, all checked to me, I bet, except 2 folded and the rest stayed in.

I rivered a J, quietly pumped my fists, checked to me, I bet, and MHIG.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
Good analysis.

I bet the flop. The turn came another blank (2 I believe), exactly the same action, all checked to me, I bet, except 2 folded and the rest stayed in.

I rivered a J, quietly pumped my fists, checked to me, I bet, and MHIG.

[/ QUOTE ]
DId you need the J?

[ArturiusX]

Turns out I was up against TT, AQ, and KK on the river.

Hitting 2 outers to win large pots is very cool /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[chief444]

I like the preflop cap here with the blinds still to act and a limper ahead of the first raise. Dead money is good money. You have JJ. You're not playing it just for set value. You're in good shape against MP2's range and MP3 could easily have AK/AQ, TT, 99, and possibly worse here. You give no reads so I'm unsure why some are assuming it's a tight table. It sure doesn't look like a tight table. And the CO poster should give MP3 a wider 3-betting range than usual.

I bet the flop for value.

[siegfriedandroy]

Do we fold even if flop comes 3 rags?

[siegfriedandroy]

Im pretty certain that the free card section in THFAP doesnt advocate taking a free card here. Perhaps that is the correct play (although intuitively i doubt it), but certainly TFHAP doesnt say to take a free card with an overpair when rags flop.

[TemetNosce]

Thanks for the analysis.

I understand the theory espoused in SSHE behind waiting until the turn to protect your hand with so many players in a pot when your pot equity is not favorable on the flop.

However, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around offering your opponents infinite pot odds by checking JJ through on a flop like this.

I think I'd have to bet the flop here.

[MrDannimal]

If they've got odds to call, it doesn't matter if it's 30:1 or infinity, they're making the right choice by calling.

You're giving up a small edge now to gain a bigger one later. If someone calls the flop bet they're more likely to be right in calling a turn raise cold. If the flop is checked, there's greater chance for them to make a mistake on the turn, which benefits you (plus the added benefit of foiling a check-raise from AA/KK, AND seeing how your equity changes with the turn card).

[brettbrettr]

Easy cap.

[brettbrettr]

Bet teh flop.

[TemetNosce]

I'm not disputing the fact that they are right to call my flop bet here with JJ. They cannot call a bet if I don't make one, though. I'm betting the JJ for value here.

Don't ignore the leverage that you have by capping preflop. Many players are going to put you on a big hand like AA or KK. That may be enough to cause someone with a hand like AQ or a small pocket pair to fold, even though they are getting the odds to draw. Not all players will keep drawing here. If you bet the flop, you can possibly induce some of your opponents to make the mistake of folding. I think that counts for something. And that cannot happen if you check the flop.

If I get check-raised on the flop, so be it. I'm certainly not dead, yet. I'm calling that raise and peeling one off on the turn. I'm likely drawing to two Jacks and a weak backdoor flush. If enough opponents are in, the pot may very well be big enough to call a turn bet to draw to a 2-outer.